Isn't neck dive simply a builders flaw?

[Johnny Alien]

Are we suppose to agree with every thing a dictionary says?


If I pick up a bass that is marketed as perfectly balanced that's what I want.

Yes if you want to describe something a certain way then one main point is to agree on what that word means. I choose to use a dictionary but in order to have a conversation we all have to agree with what makes a flaw. I would take dictionary defintion as a reliable way to start.

Either way if the bass is marketed by the company as perfectly balancing and it doesn't then I would say it is flawed as it does not meet the companies defintion of perfection.

But if we hold a bass differently and it balances well for me and not for you I don't think we can say the bass is flawed.

 

[atheos]

My Iceman has quite a lot neck dive but as long as I can hold it with my right hand I'm cool. Can't remember if I've ever needed my both hands off the bass while "wearing" it, probably not.

Why not use more comfortable bass? Because of the looks. The Iceman is so damn beautiful that I'm willing to sacrifice a bit comfort just to look good. Ask any woman who uses makeup or high heels - it's pretty much the same. Also, I've never encountered any pain, injuries or limited playability so I don't see a problem.

Neck dive is a matter of design, yes. A bass can be designed to have or not to have it. Still, I'd hardly call it an issue... I mean, you probably wouldn't say that when compared to a SUV, a Ferrari has design issue with reduced visibility because the driver is sitting so close to the ground.

 

[David Jayne]

But if we hold a bass differently and it balances well for me and not for you I don't think we can say the bass is flawed.

Sure, but I think most would agree that somewhere between 90˚ and 50˚ from vertical could be considered 'balanced.'
The problem lies with basses that 'balance' with the neck beyond 90˚ from vertical. IMO.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Sure, but I think most would agree that somewhere between 90˚ and 50˚ from vertical could be considered 'balanced.'
The problem lies with basses that 'balance' with the neck beyond 90˚ from vertical. IMO.

Absolutely. But my point is that someone that plays their bass at a 45 degree angle will say that a bass has neck dive if it won't stay in that position but if it stays at 90 degrees and that is how I play it then to me it is perfectly balanced. It is "flawed" to them and not to me.

Likewise if it drops past 90 degrees then I will say the neck dives but someone else that loves big straps might never notice or someone that always sits also might not ever notice. And if the tone is killer for them then the bass is not flawed for them but it is for me.

So if the bass meets quality and design checks from the company perspective then every other "flaw" is nothing more than personal opinion of what makes a perfect bass.

 

[Eilif]

Forgive me for not reading all 8 pages.

In as much as a flaw is something short of perfection, neck dive is always a flaw.

But is it a Builder's Flaw? Sometimes.

If the bass advertised as having good balance, then yes.
If the bass is a variation on a standard design that is not known to have neck dive (jazz bass), then yes.

If it's a classic design or base don a classic design that is known to dive (T-bird, viola bass, SG), then NO.
If it's a design requested by the customer that is inherently imballanced ("I want a telecaster body with standard upper horn and a long scale") then NO.

Perhaps in most cases it would be more accurate to speak of "Design flaw" than Builder's Flaw.

That's how I see it.

 

[cassanova]

Isn't neck dive simply just a builders flaw no matter how much the bass cost?

IMO yes.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

If the builder designed it it's a flaw, if some one else other than the builder designed it and the luthier built it, it's still a flaw.

 

[bassmonkeee]

If the builder designed it it's a flaw, if some one else other than the builder designed it and the luthier built it, it's still a flaw.

Saying that a bass with neck dive is automatically a flawed design is no different than saying a tractor that doesn't get 50 miles to the gallon or go 130 mph is a flawed design.

It's a ridiculous argument.

SGs have horrible neck dive, but people still buy them and play them and love them. It's not a "design flaw." If anything, it's a "design quirk." If you use a wide, leather strap, a lot of basses with neck dive no longer have that problem. Does that mean it's now a strap flaw? If a player has a giant round belly and his bass tends to neck dive because of the way it's worn, is it a bass flaw or a physique flaw? Since I can play with my arm resting on the top of a bass body and correct most basses with neck dive, does that mean that others who don't do that have a technique flaw? Or, if they wear the bass too low, and the strap is too long, does that make it a length flaw?

Some people might say that a bass designed with notes too low to be heard by humans or played through standard cabinets is a design flaw. Something tells me that others might disagree with that sentiment.

 

[Rickett Customs]

If it's something I make, then the design will combat neckdive, If it's something that the client wants and is dead set on it, regardless of my suggestion, then that's on them....they will live with it.

 

[Johnny Alien]

If the builder designed it it's a flaw, if some one else other than the builder designed it and the luthier built it, it's still a flaw.

Again though...that is your opinion because it does not meet YOUR standards. If it was designed that way and meets qualiity standards in construction then it is NOT a flaw it just does not meet your concept of a perfect bass. Someone else might be perfectly fine with it the way it is.

Many modern cars have center gauges that I find very difficult to read. To me that is a a bad design but lots of people are OK with it and have no problem with it being there. Is that a flaw because I think the design is less than perfect.

This thread is all about meeting personal expectations in a bass which is crazy since everyone has different expectations.

If it was designed to balance perfectly and it doesn't it's a flaw. Otherwise it's not.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Saying that a bass with neck dive is automatically a flawed design is no different than saying a tractor that doesn't get 50 miles to the gallon or go 130 mph is a flawed design.

It's a ridiculous argument.

SGs have horrible neck dive, but people still buy them and play them and love them. It's not a "design flaw." If anything, it's a "design quirk." If you use a wide, leather strap, a lot of basses with neck dive no longer have that problem. Does that mean it's now a strap flaw? If a player has a giant round belly and his bass tends to neck dive because of the way it's worn, is it a bass flaw or a physique flaw?

You are entitled to your opinion. But when a company claims perfection and perfect balance and don't deliver. It's a flaw.

Why should a bassist(or guitarist) use a strap to fix a problem that they are obviously recognizing as something that the company may not have put much thought or respectful consideration into?

Doesn't make since.

Some people might say that a bass designed with notes too low to be heard by humans or played through standard cabinets is a design flaw. Something tells me that others might disagree with that sentiment.

Come out to one of my shows some time and hear for yourself.

If it was designed to balance perfectly and it doesn't it's a flaw. Otherwise it's not.

Exactly my point.

 

[Johnny Alien]

But when a company claims perfection and perfect balance and don't deliver. It's a flaw.

I agree with this but that was not a stipulation in your original question. You asked if it was always a flaw no matter what.

 

[tZer]

Isn't neck dive simply just a builders flaw no matter how much the bass cost?

OK - I've just talked myself in circles in trying to answer this and what I've come to regarding neck-dive being a flaw is the uneventful conclusion, "it depends".

For me, no question. It's a flaw.

But I've seen players who use basses very differently than I do. They grip it with the fretting/fingering hand differently, sling it lower, use it as a prop as well as an instrument and so on. While I don't go about things that way, I can see how neck-dive may not be an issue for others so I cannot declare it an outright flaw.

(But between you and me, I see NO reason to build or own a bass that doesn't balance)

 

[dvh]

So, here we have a testimonial from a T-bird player of 30 years. Doesn't look like any naysayers have bothered to read it.

heatheroo's experience speaks for itself. You can't call something a design flaw just because YOU don't happen to like it, or can't deal with it. Some people here (at Talkbass, not this thread) have said "bolt on construction is a design flaw", and "non-angled headstock is a design flaw", and the neck dive claim is equally silly. Let's see, what else: "roundwound strings are rough on your fingers, that's a design flaw". Might as well cite any neck profile, string spacing, or scale length that makes your hand uncomfortable.

I could do my job just fine with a neck-divey bass -- therefore, it is NOT a design flaw, even though I *prefer* to avoid basses with neck dive.

I disagree. As has been noted a few times neck dive is fundamentally a design flaw. The things you cite above don’t impact the ergonomics of the bass. There are pros and cons to the design of anything – it’s finding the balance between function and form. In the case of something like a guitar, neck dive is a victory of form over function – hence, a flaw…

 

[Rickett Customs]

.....But I've seen players who use basses very differently than I do. They grip it with the fretting/fingering hand differently, sling it lower, use it as a prop as well as an instrument and so on. While I don't go about things that way, I can see how neck-dive may not be an issue for others so I cannot declare it an outright flaw.

(But between you and me, I see NO reason to build or own a bass that doesn't balance)

^^^^ THis makes a ton of sense, Tony.

 

[cnltb]

Isn't neck dive simply just a builders flaw no matter how much the bass cost?

No.
I don't think so-has nothing to do with the built, but with the design of the instrument and that is not always done by the builder.
I do agree though that less than perfect design can be seen in cheap instruments as well as in very expensive ones-one of the most neck divy basses I ever played was a 33" 5 string-signature model made by a very revered company.
#The built quality was pretty good apart from little detail over sight.

 

[bubinga5]

if it doesnt let you use the instrument properly of course its a design fault....would you drive a car that steers to the left?....unless you mind altering the steering all the time...i know what i like...

i do agree that people hold there instruments differently but i dont think in any way that builders think about these people when building....there is no argument here..

an instrument should balance on your shoulders...period

t bird players will of course disagree

 

[Johnny Alien]

if it doesnt let you use the instrument properly of course its a design fault....would you drive a car that steers to the left?....unless you mind altering the steering all the time...i know what i like...

there is no argument here

A car doing that would not be meeting the companies design as I assume the car would not be designed to pull to the left.

A Thunderbird may neck dive but that was exactly how it was designed by Gibson. Just because someone doesn't like to play it because it is uncomfortable to them does not mean it is a flaw to anyone but them.

 

[David Jayne]

if it doesnt let you use the instrument properly of course its a design fault....would you drive a car that steers to the left?....unless you mind altering the steering all the time...i know what i like...

NASCAR?
In this day and age, any car that lacks an automatic transmission and power windows is flawed. We have the technology to overcome these defects.

 

[tZer]

if it doesnt let you use the instrument properly of course its a design fault....

I'd change that to "if it doesn't let ANYONE use the instrument, it's a design flaw"

Properly = subjective and while many of us understand that similarly, there are different interpretations that cannot be ignored.

I had a particular bass - a Spector Rebop 5 - that had horrible neck dive for me. It hurt my hand to play and ultimately was useless to me. I posted it for trade or sale here and traded it to another TB'er, neck-dive disclosed and everything and he liked it. He was bigger than I am so it's possible his size negated the neck dive - but as for it being a design flaw, apparently not because another person found it to be perfectly fine.

Now had that particular issue prevented him or anyone else from being able to use it, I'd have to say that was a genuine flaw.


@Rickett Customes (Jason) - Thanks, man! [minor hijack]My #2's hanging and drying and after some final polishing, will be turned loose before the summer's out!! NO NECK DIVE HERE![/minor hijack]