Isn't neck dive simply a builders flaw?

[TBird1958]

Eh..............well.

I play Thunderbirds and own lots of them from many different builders including Epiphone, BaCH, Ibanez, Greco, Orville, Gibson,Jackson and Lull, honestly I wouldn't use these basses if the OP's premise were true for me - It's not.
I mind my strap length, but don't use anything special, play mostly rock and pop in cover band so I work the money frets, I watch my weight, no beer gut to make my basses hang funny, been doing it for better than 30 years.........
Several other have made some well reasoned posts that state it pretty well, what works for one may not for another, nice that we can all be different yet still enjoy playing the bass.

 

[Fuzzbass]

tZer's post answers it better than I can...

No, it doesn't. tZer simply explains his own personal definition of a "balanced bass".

But playing position is the variable. Your picture proves it. That is not the position I like. I play with the bass lower and completely horizontal. So something that drops to 90 degrees to you would have neck dive and to me would be proper playing position. That is why everything spoken about revolves around personal preference and playing style. You view on perfect is not the same as mine or someone elses. So which person is right enough to warrant this being a "flaw"?

Johnny Alien shows that what works for tZer isn't universal. As you can see in my avatar, I also prefer a fairly horizontal playing position.

There's also the bigger picture: does an "unbalanced bass" constitute a "flawed design"? The answer is NO, because balance isn't an important criteria for some players... it's simply one more subjective criteria on which we base our bass-buying decisions.

 

[tZer]

No, it doesn't. tZer simply explains his own personal definition of a "balanced bass".



Johnny Alien shows that what works for tZer isn't universal.

There's also the bigger picture: does an "unbalanced bass" constitute a "flawed design"? The answer is NO, because balance isn't an important criteria for some players... it's simply one more subjective criteria on which we base our bass-buying decisions.

A balanced bass in not an undefinable quantity and while my definition does define it as I see it, it also defines it as it is. If a bass doesn't dive or spring when hanging on a strap, if it can be placed in a playing position for the individual and not require any additional support or counter force from the player's hands, it's balanced.

The picture I posted shows my preferred playing position, but as I explained to Johnny Alien, that's not the only position that instrument will stay in unaided. I didn't explain that in my original post - but that's the case. The implication wasn't that a bass needs to hang like mine - it's that it needs to remain in playing position for the player unaided.

Does that make sense?

Now whether or not you, as an individual, find a bass' balance or lack thereof to be important is subjective. But whether or not the bass is balanced is not.

 

[TheSuzie]

And all this I am familiar with. But I would not be surprised if such a case came forward and the luthier lost.

Yes but the "rule of deep pockets" leads me to believe that a case is much more likely to be filed against a mass producer/marketer. Also a big judgment is much more likely to be made against a large corporation. The hot coffee case was not filed against a mom and pop diner. Not much to gain there. I'm sure the size of that judgment was influenced by the fact that the defendant was McDonald's.

Maybe luthiers need to carry insurance just like almost everyone else in today's world. I carry a bunch of extra liability on my car just in case (g-d forbid) someone were to be injured. I usually worked for manufacturers in a way that everyone was protected by their insurance. I actually read the contracts I signed and usually had them reviewed by an attorney. Just part of doing business these days.

Peace,
S

I do think see a dead horse round the next corner

 

[Brad Johnson]

A balanced bass in not an undefinable quantity and while my definition does define it as I see it, it also defines it as it is. If a bass doesn't dive or spring when hanging on a strap, if it can be placed in a playing position for the individual and not require any additional support or counter force from the player's hands, it's balanced.

The picture I posted shows my preferred playing position, but as I explained to Johnny Alien, that's not the only position that instrument will stay in unaided. I didn't explain that in my original post - but that's the case. The implication wasn't that a bass needs to hang like mine - it's that it needs to remain in playing position for the player unaided.

Does that make sense?

Now whether or not you, as an individual, find a basses balance or lack thereof to be important to you is subjective. But whether or not the bass is balanced is not.

For this to truly be definable you'd have to define what I highlighted. There are many basses that would do just as you stated if you wore your bass like Bunny Brunel... almost vertical. It really depends on the player, as stated. Can't take that out of the equation...

unless we all want to agree on a bass sitting in a chair without the bassist standard. Then again, not many people play their bass sitting in a chair without them.


Again, with the straps I use and how I position basses when I play them, no basses I've played dive. So is the flaw on the bassist for not doing what I do?

 

[jmorbita]

Neck dive can cause injuries. Maybe neck dive will become extinct if enough players could prove in court how the pressure that's placed on their wrist destroyed their ability to play.

Maybe then builders should warn against playing the bass standing up. I guess if you played a piano standing up and with a strap it might cause injuries as well.
Maybe it was designed to play sitting down? just like any other instrument in an orchestra?

 

[wade_b]

And the woman who sued McDonald's over the hot coffee incident won her case.

The injuries sustained from that scalding hot coffee were very real and required skin grafts and other treatments.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin.

A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas.

She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.

 

[GeneralElectric]

But if people want to spend their money for a flaw, I guess they're getting what they choose to pay for.

Welcome to a free market.

 

[tZer]

For this to truly be definable you'd have to define what I highlighted. There are many basses that would do just as you stated if you wore your bass like Bunny Brunel... almost vertical. It really depends on the player, as stated. Can't take that out of the equation...

unless we all want to agree on a bass sitting in a chair without the bassist standard. Then again, not many people play their bass sitting in a chair without them.


Again, with the straps I use and how I position basses when I play them, no basses I've played dive. So is the flaw on the bassist for not doing what I do?

I guess I am really doing the concept of balance no justice with my definitions, am I?

I was making some assumptions that I think are reasonable to make in my definition including the fact that sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't, but the point is that you can effectively quantify what a 'balanced' instrument is - even considering the various ways people choose to wear them.

You can also easily (maybe more so) quantify what an unbalanced instrument is allowing in both definitions for the consideration of reasonable variation and deviation of playing position based on individual preference.

Now there are always going to be exceptions but those shouldn't negate the norm. If someone plays perfectly vertical, balance won't matter one iota. It doesn't mean the bass isn't balanced, it just means the player plays it in a way that balance doesn't factor into.

By the same token, if someone plays it with the headstock on the floor, the same thing applies - balance probably isn't a factor for them either - but it doesn't mean the instrument is or isn't balanced, it just means their preference in wearing it doesn't factor balance into the equation.

BUT - whether or not the instrument is balanced can be quantified and is not necessarily subjective or specific to the individual. As many have said, some basses balance for some but not others. These basses can be called, 'somewhat' balanced. Other basses balance no matter who is holding them. Those can definitely be called balanced. Some will dive no matter what and they are absolutely not balanced.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

The injuries sustained from that scalding hot coffee were very real and required skin grafts and other treatments.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I read a back history on the McDonalds case, and the reason the woman was given so much was because McDonalds had a history of maintaining their coffee temperature higher than other restaurants, and refused to change it despite several other severe burns that other people had received from it in the past.

 

[lunarpollen]

I would say it is a design flaw on a bass only if the neck dive is almost always present no matter who plays it. I know there are many basses that some people complain of neck dive with that don't display a neck dive issue with other players. What may dive for one person might not for another. In that case, I would not call it a design flaw per se. Not every bass needs to be universally ergonomically designed in a one-size-fits-all fashion in order to be considered non-flawed.

 

[dave956]

At the risk of stating the obvious, when I go bass shopping, I either carry my strap or borrow one that I adjust to my liking, and play for awhile... if the bass stays where I want it, let's talk. if not...

I bought one bass early on that did not balance well, it was misery. I've seen lots of basses from big names that aren't balanced, (meaning I have to support the neck to keep it from falling over). I think sometimes some of the mass builders wind up with a load of extra light body wood that keeps the instruments neck heavy.

This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to buy an instrument I haven't played...

 

[spade2you]

I read a back history on the McDonalds case, and the reason the woman was given so much was because McDonalds had a history of maintaining their coffee temperature higher than other restaurants, and refused to change it despite several other severe burns that other people had received from it in the past.

Plus, the possible injuries from a neck divey bass aren't exactly instant or all of a sudden. I've only played a few basses with neck dive and knew that my hands didn't like it. I could see a big flaw in a case like this being that it hurt, but the guy kept doing it.

 

[Staccato]

Found a couple of definitions in the TB archives...

neck dive = neck heavy

When the neck and headstock are so heavy that the neck has the tendency to drop towards the floor and you have to counter this with your fretting hand. Usually found on basses where the strap button is higher than the 12th-14th fret, e.g. Gibson Thunderbird or Warwick Thumb.

It's the tendency for a bass' headstock to want to "dive" for the floor when it's not being held.

This usually happens with basses that have unusually small bodies, and/or large or heavy headstocks. One of the best examples of this is a Gibson EB-O.

You can get used to it.

Mike

 

[Fuzzbass]

BUT - whether or not the instrument is balanced can be quantified and is not necessarily subjective or specific to the individual. As many have said, some basses balance for some but not others. These basses can be called, 'somewhat' balanced. Other basses balance no matter who is holding them. Those can definitely be called balanced. Some will dive no matter what and they are absolutely not balanced.

Well, you can't say that a bass will dive "no matter what". TBer heatheroo described how he's been playing a T-bird for 30 years. His normal playing position is to rest his forearm on the bass body, so the T-bird doesn't dive for him at all. Will it dive if he removes his forearm? Maybe, but that is irrelevant: all that really matters is that he's comfortable playing the bass. In fact one could easily argue that T-bird style basses are a wise ergonomic choice for the player who likes to rest his forearm on the bass:
Link Removed

But the larger point is whether imbalance constitutes a "flaw". I don't see how it possibly does. Balance is just one of many, many factors in a bass. For some players it's a big deal... and I certainly understand that, in the very same way that string spacing, scale length, and neck profile can be important. But balance simply isn't important to others -- they suffer no discomfort or inconvenience from their EB-0 or Thumb or whatever. So, it's silly to demand that all basses be "balanced", even if that's the preference of the majority. If imbalance is a flaw, then you might as well say that any bass over 13 pounds is flawed due to excess weight. No wait, I have a bad back... let's make that 10 pounds.

Point is, it's simply personal preference, no different than scale length, string spacing, neck profile.

 

[Mark4]

It doesn't strike me as much of a design issue as a matter of balancing the weight of the neck to the weight of the body. That said, I don't imagine that the weight of a maple neck varies as much as the difference between a heavy mahogany body and a lightweight swamp ash body, for example. The instrument with the lighter body will be somewhat more prone to neck-dive. There can also be variations within the same make and model using the same materials. For example, my Hohner B2A doesn't neck-dive. It balances nicely. However, another Talkbass member bolted an extender on his B2A to resolve neck-dive issues. They are exactly the same design, yet his bass had a tendency that mine doesn't. I don't really see that kind of thing as a design flaw. The difference is probably better attributed to natural variations in wood density than anything else.

 

[St Drogo]

Yeah, that spyder/explorer type bass is a bad offender neckdiverwise. Which is strange, because if you flip the body, it should balance perfectly. I think adam clayton has a signature like that, doesn't even look as bad as you might imagine.

 

[St Drogo]

^^ here ya go:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Brad Johnson]

I guess I am really doing the concept of balance no justice with my definitions, am I?

I was making some assumptions that I think are reasonable to make in my definition including the fact that sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't, but the point is that you can effectively quantify what a 'balanced' instrument is - even considering the various ways people choose to wear them.

You can also easily (maybe more so) quantify what an unbalanced instrument is allowing in both definitions for the consideration of reasonable variation and deviation of playing position based on individual preference.

Now there are always going to be exceptions but those shouldn't negate the norm. If someone plays perfectly vertical, balance won't matter one iota. It doesn't mean the bass isn't balanced, it just means the player plays it in a way that balance doesn't factor into.

By the same token, if someone plays it with the headstock on the floor, the same thing applies - balance probably isn't a factor for them either - but it doesn't mean the instrument is or isn't balanced, it just means their preference in wearing it doesn't factor balance into the equation.

BUT - whether or not the instrument is balanced can be quantified and is not necessarily subjective or specific to the individual. As many have said, some basses balance for some but not others. These basses can be called, 'somewhat' balanced. Other basses balance no matter who is holding them. Those can definitely be called balanced. Some will dive no matter what and they are absolutely not balanced.

We simply disagree. Who is holding the bass really does matter.

 

[tZer]

We simply disagree. Who is holding the bass really does matter.

OK, agreed.