• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

It looks like poor Carol Kaye doesn't understand the internet

#321
Roy Vogt said:
Dude, that's great! I'll send your CD to a P2P network and we'll get it all over the world. Oh, and me and 50 friends want to come to your next gig, but we're not gonna pay cover, dig? We'll just sit and listen-cuz the music should be free, right?
Oh, BTW, can I have your bass?
Click to expand...

There will be no need for you to upload my "CD" (which btw, your choice of "CD" is fairly telling as to where your head is in this conversation) to P2Ps because I will have already uploaded the FLACs well before you. Also, feel free to try and get into the club free, but there will most likely be a boucer at the door that will make it infinitely more difficult than DL an album online. OTOH, feel free to stand outside and "steal" my music by listening just outside the door, because THAT (just like Internet sharing) is just more hassle than it's worth to try and force you to pay for. Finally, NO you can't have my bass because then I wouldn't have it. However, feel free to make a copy of my bass (I could post some dimensions if you'd like).


P.S. I have never once said (or implied) that "music should be free" and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth in order to build a strawman against me.
 
#323
baalroo said:
There will be no need for you to upload my "CD" (which btw, your choice of "CD" is fairly telling as to where your head is in this conversation) to P2Ps because I will have already uploaded the FLACs well before you.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was a real head scratcher. :hmm:
Love your stuff Roy, but your rebuttal leads me to believe you're not as on top of this, technologically, as I thought.

No one here is saying "stealing" CK stuff is right. Just that she's (due to technological ignorance and attitude) dealing with it all wrong. This is really very simple.
 
#324
baalroo said:
There will be no need for you to upload my "CD" (which btw, your choice of "CD" is fairly telling as to where your head is in this conversation) to P2Ps because I will have already uploaded the FLACs well before you. Also, feel free to try and get into the club free, but there will most likely be a boucer at the door that will make it infinitely more difficult than DL an album online. OTOH, feel free to stand outside and "steal" my music by listening just outside the door, because THAT (just like Internet sharing) is just more hassle than it's worth to try and force you to pay for. Finally, NO you can't have my bass because then I wouldn't have it. However, feel free to make a copy of my bass (I could post some dimensions if you'd like).


P.S. I have never once said (or implied) that "music should be free" and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth in order to build a strawman against me.
Click to expand...


I love you for using flac. Now if I could only find a portable player...
 
#326
Roy Vogt said:
Dude, me and my 14 year-old little brother have worked out a crack so that we can access those subscriber sites for free. That's cool, isn't it?
BTW, if you think that a fine person like Victor Wooten and a 50 year Music Veteran like Carol Kaye are "the Man" I frankly don't know what planet you're from. They aren't Madonna.....Vic's on Indie Labels and constantly tours to support his family and Carol's just a working player retired on her pension. I'm friends with both of them and I KNOW they're not Donald Trump.
Click to expand...

I don't believe I directly called carol and victor "the man," I was saying that they both operate within the old major label good ol' boy recording industry's system, unlike most of the people/bands I know/admire who work completely (or at least as completely as possible) outside of it.
 
#327
PhatBasstard said:
Yeah, that was a real head scratcher. :hmm:
Love your stuff Roy, but your rebuttal leads me to believe you're not as on top of this, technologically, as I thought.

No one here is saying "stealing" CK stuff is right. Just that she's (due to technological ignorance and attitude) dealing with it all wrong. This is really very simple.
Click to expand...

That's right. Stealing is the issue. I'm relatively up on technology, have my own label, do downloads, and am pretty much a DIY sorta guy. The operative word here would be when someone's material (Musical or Educational) is put out on the web for general use and distribution WITHOUT their consent. That's stealing as sure as taking someone's bass or anything else. I can choose to upload, give away, put a clip on Youtube or anything else of my material because it's my material. It crosses the line IMHO when it's SOMEONE ELSE'S material.
Poor Carol is 72 years old and semi-retired and living on her Musicians Union Pension, teaching private lessons and selling educational materials. When someone puts her books on BitTorrent that's one less that's sold. That does have an impact, especially when you are a DIY person.
If I'm distributing my self-produced, self-financed CD and 500 copies are distributed by BitTorrent without my knowledge or consent, that's $3500 that I won't get to produce another CD, pay my band to play a live date, or perhaps even squander it on food, clothing and shelter.
I got a little testy guys, sorry. I apologize if I hurt anybody's feelings-really. It's just that this hits close to home for anyone who's trying to make a living creating, writing and selling their Musical or Educational work.
FWIW, I don't distinguish between FLAC, MP3, BitTorrent, CDs, fee-based educational sites or Whatever. If it's a technology, sadly there will be someone hard at work figuring out a way to circumvent paying the Artist. I can steal from McDonalds or Starbucks, but it's still stealing. That was the point of my original post.
 
#328
Roy Vogt said:
If I'm distributing my self-produced, self-financed CD and 500 copies are distributed by BitTorrent without my knowledge or consent, that's $3500 that I won't get to produce another CD, pay my band to play a live date, or perhaps even squander it on food, clothing and shelter.
Click to expand...

Hey man, I really do think that people should be making a living off of their hard work, and I understand where you are coming from. But I have to say that it's not as straightforward as that. I happen to know for a fact that there are people who, if they have no money, pirate music and never buy anything. But there's no money to begin with, so how has anyone lost anything? They wouldn't have bought it anyway, often because they can't. But I also happen to know for a fact that there are people who download torrents, buy the vinyl if they like it, and trash it without distributing it if they don't. Seems like the musician benefits in that case. So how much does the musician lose (or, gasp, gain?) overall? Beats the hell out of me.

Google "do pirates buy music". Food for thought.
 
#329
mister-o said:
H I happen to know for a fact that there are people who, if they have no money, pirate music and never buy anything. But there's no money to begin with, so how has anyone lost anything? They wouldn't have bought it anyway, often because they can't..
Click to expand...

That's sort of like if someone doesn't have the money to buy a car so they steal mine-but since they didn't have the money to buy it anyway, it's no loss. And if they don't like my car, they can always set fire to it....Sort of like not buying the vinyl and trashing the download.
Once again, I can choose to give a car, a bass or my music to anyone-but the operative word here is choose. If it's not my choice or with my knowledge, it's not right.
 
#331
projectMalamute said:
It's actually nothing like that.

If someone steals your car you no longer have a car.

If someone downloads your music you still have everything you had before they did that.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I guess the better analogy would be a counterfeit $20 bill. That's not hurting anybody, is it? We all have our real money, so how can a counterfeit hurt, especially if I spend it at your business?
 
#333
projectMalamute said:
What?
Click to expand...

Basically, it's a non-material crime. No money has been stolen, just a counterfeit has been introduced into the system and some money has been taken in the form of change back and goods bought with the counterfeit bill, or whatever.
The true point is that if someone has created a Work, it should be theirs to control.
I guess a better analogy would be if I hear a song your band wrote, like it, copy it, change two words in the lyrics and present it as my original work. You still have your own song, how does this hurt you?
 
#334
Roy Vogt said:
That's right. Stealing is the issue. I'm relatively up on technology, have my own label, do downloads, and am pretty much a DIY sorta guy. The operative word here would be when someone's material (Musical or Educational) is put out on the web for general use and distribution WITHOUT their consent. That's stealing as sure as taking someone's bass or anything else. I can choose to upload, give away, put a clip on Youtube or anything else of my material because it's my material. It crosses the line IMHO when it's SOMEONE ELSE'S material.
Poor Carol is 72 years old and semi-retired and living on her Musicians Union Pension, teaching private lessons and selling educational materials. When someone puts her books on BitTorrent that's one less that's sold. That does have an impact, especially when you are a DIY person.
If I'm distributing my self-produced, self-financed CD and 500 copies are distributed by BitTorrent without my knowledge or consent, that's $3500 that I won't get to produce another CD, pay my band to play a live date, or perhaps even squander it on food, clothing and shelter.
I got a little testy guys, sorry. I apologize if I hurt anybody's feelings-really. It's just that this hits close to home for anyone who's trying to make a living creating, writing and selling their Musical or Educational work.
FWIW, I don't distinguish between FLAC, MP3, BitTorrent, CDs, fee-based educational sites or Whatever. If it's a technology, sadly there will be someone hard at work figuring out a way to circumvent paying the Artist. I can steal from McDonalds or Starbucks, but it's still stealing. That was the point of my original post.
Click to expand...


amen
 
#336
Roy Vogt said:
Basically, it's a non-material crime. No money has been stolen, just a counterfeit has been introduced into the system and some money has been taken in the form of change back and goods bought with the counterfeit bill, or whatever.
The true point is that if someone has created a Work, it should be theirs to control.
I guess a better analogy would be if I hear a song your band wrote, like it, copy it, change two words in the lyrics and present it as my original work. You still have your own song, how does this hurt you?
Click to expand...
where i run into a dilemma is stuff that is not available any other way than downloading......ie an out of print record.....is the artist hurt if someone makes me a copy.used copies do not pay royalties
 
#337
Roy Vogt said:
Basically, it's a non-material crime. No money has been stolen, just a counterfeit has been introduced into the system and some money has been taken in the form of change back and goods bought with the counterfeit bill, or whatever.
The true point is that if someone has created a Work, it should be theirs to control.
I guess a better analogy would be if I hear a song your band wrote, like it, copy it, change two words in the lyrics and present it as my original work. You still have your own song, how does this hurt you?
Click to expand...

You are really reaching here, and arguing by analogy is a ******** exercise anyway.

The salient point is this:

Roy Vogt said:
The true point is that if someone has created a Work, it should be theirs to control.
Click to expand...

What you would like it to be, what you think it should be, how it used to be, none of that stuff matters. Digital data can be reproduced, distributed, and stored perfectly and indefinitely for almost free. Once stuff is out there it's out there. That's how the world works now. Welcome to the 21st century.

The paradigm has shifted. You are a farrier cursing the invention of the automobile.
 
#338
Roy Vogt said:
That's sort of like if someone doesn't have the money to buy a car so they steal mine-but since they didn't have the money to buy it anyway, it's no loss. And if they don't like my car, they can always set fire to it....Sort of like not buying the vinyl and trashing the download.
Once again, I can choose to give a car, a bass or my music to anyone-but the operative word here is choose. If it's not my choice or with my knowledge, it's not right.
Click to expand...

As pointed out already, that analogy is grossly misleading (not purchasing something is like setting a car on fire?) and often made dishonestly. The point is this. Stealing physical property is wrong because it hurts people. Illegally copying digital property is said to be wrong by analogy: the copying results in loss of profit for the artist. What my example intended to show is that the analogy is NOT OBVIOUS. It is simply not obvious, especially given that there are studies that (claim to?) show that music pirates buy more music than non-pirates, that pirating music per se results in a loss of profit by the artist. If it does, I think we can all agree that that's not right. But it simply does not follow that you lose money if I copy your music unless we make a whole host of other assumptions. Therefore it does not follow immediately that you are hurt (it is an open question). Therefore, it does not follow that it is wrong (it might be, but how do you know? It's an empirical question).
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back