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It looks like poor Carol Kaye doesn't understand the internet

#282
Roy Vogt said:
She's an easy target because of the controversy surrounding some of the Motown tracks and her sometimes cranky nature, but sometimes I think she's too much like Jaco is here on TB-just a name that someone can diss without any knowledge of her and her background and the times she functioned in.
This has nothing to do with the thread but a lot to do with Civility, IMO.
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No Roy who's want to do some serious research on some one other than their hero? :)
 
#283
#285
MikeBass said:
Again, can someone point me to any recient recordings she has played on???
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Again -- the original point of this thread was not Carol's ability to play or whether she's "relevant" because she might not have played on anything recently. James Jamerson hasn't played since he died but he is still relevant to bass playing today. Same for Ray Brown.

I don't know if Joe Osborn has played on anything recently, but his playing is still relevant. Carol plays well -- her body of work supports that many people agree with this assessment. Whether you like her style or playing is an opinion, and I have no problem with opinions.

What I have a problem with is people saying that she is irrelevant, overrated and a lousy player simply because she can be abrasive and vocal or has been misinformed or just plain doesn't understand copyright issues and the Internet. Tiger Woods may be a bad husband, but he is a great golfer and is still relevant to the sport. Pete Rose bet on baseball, but he was still a great hitter and has had an influence on baseball. Are these guys relevant to the sports today? As long as kids say, "I want to play because of Tiger or Pete," they remain relevant. Same for Carol.
 
#286
DreadRaver said:
I do think the original issue of this thread is the lack of Civility that Carol has displayed as she goes about tilting at windmills.
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I would tend to be a little uncivil if I were attempting to shut down what I perceived to be the theft of a work I created (granted she may be misfiring and mistaken at the target). Sorry, but I've got just a little bit too much Texas Redneck in my nature to not protect me and mine.
I would have a total breakdown of Civility, for example, if I found someone in the process of liberating my bass and amp from the back of my car because "music should be free"....
 
#287
DreadRaver said:
Invalid Link Removed - 71 comments

http://industry.bnet.com/technology/10005551/four-myths-about-suing-google/ - 5 comments

http://www.ubervu.com/conversations/freakbits.com/carol-kaye-misunderstands-torrentfreak-0221 - 124 comments

Invalid Link Removed
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Back on point:
There is no question Carol Kay's musical contributions (those that are not in question) are great. However, we've seemed to have lost sight that the OP's point of this thread has nothing to do with those (as created).

The first link above is a must read on this, but all of them together show how she is becoming the laughing stock of the internet and has been so insanely rude and ignorant about the whole mess that even those who claim to know her (and you know who you are) don't even seem to want to risk getting involved beyond defending her here on TB.

This is all her fault. Period!
Her point/complaint about the illegal distribution of her works is valid. Her method and asinine behavior, even towards those who tried to help, is utterly indefensible.
 
#290
Roy Vogt said:
This thread just touches a greater problem-due to Napster, Kazaa, Pirate Bay and Bit Torrent there is an entire generation of consumers out there who think that they should not have to pay for ANY music, software, or information whatsoever. I was first aware of this when I was on tour in Singapore and went to a local shopping mall. There was a store where you could buy the entire recorded output of one Artist/Band on mp3s on a CD (this was in 1999) for next to nothing. This was incredibly illegal.
What everyone has to remember is that at the end of this food chain is not "the Man", but Carol, Victor Wooten, Mike Watt, Nathan East, Michael Rhodes, Jaco's kids, and other fellow bassists and their families. When sales tank less sessions are booked because the Record Companies have no money so it hits the Record Company budget and the session bassists you love to read about in BP lose. Indie artists are hurt because their sales go directly into their pocket so they will feel a 30-50% drop in income. When there's no money and no sales Artists can't afford to tour. Music publishers won't develop new bass books or methods because it all goes on the internet for free. No profit means no motivation to invest.
I'm not some Luddite that believes we can put the Genie back in the bottle, but if you follow this to it's logical conclusion you will end up with old music and video clips on Youtube for Media and Music, some 16 year old kid in his bedroom on Youtube demonstrating how he slaps for Music Instruction and really inaccurate TABs for sheet music.
If "music should be free" then we can't even charge cover when we're playing for the door somewhere. Everyone will have to take their instruments and a tin cup and hit the streets. Not my ideal world.....
BTW, if software should be free, why don't some of you who work in IT/Development just send all of us ALL of your products right now? How about it? Didn't think so.....
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Look, just because YOU don't understand how to create a business model in an industry where the digital media part of a package is free, doesn't mean there aren't any such models out there. Also, for the record if people like Carol Kaye and Victor Wooten aren't part of the system that you are referring to as "the man" (which is a bit of an immature viewpoint btw) then I don't know who is.

Next, where are you pulling these numbers from? Do you have a source for this "30%-50% drop in income" for indie artists or did it just sound like a good number to throw out? I guess the explosion of the "indie artist" in the last 5 to 10 years (fueled mostly by filesharing and internet discussion forums) just flew completely under your radar? Maybe all these young artists making a living wage and touring and selling (yeah, SELLING) records and other merch directly to their fans is just a mirage?

I really don't think it's necessary to explain that just because the paradigm has shifted, it doesn't automatically mean that there's no more money to be made. Let's take your example of instructional videos. If someone wants to make a great instructional site these days and SELL it to the public with minimal threat of people pirating their work, they can simply create an encrypted pay site that hosts all the instructional information in a streaming only format. The person who would have traditionally paid the $30 or $40 for a VHS or DVD now pays a monthly fee for access to the site, IN FACT with this model the instructors can continuously make updates and add lessons and keep a customer "on the hook" for WAY more than the simple one time purchase that would have been made in the previous generations business model. There are examples like this for every single issue you can bring up with pirating that level the playing field and create a money making environment for those who are entrepreneurially minded.

You folks act like the music business has been a static thing and the rules for how media is sold and distributed where printed up in the back of the bible. Business changes as technology changes and smart people will find ways to profit off of those changes while the old guard cry and moan that their old business models no longer work.

Quit beating a dead horse, get on board, and make some money.
 
#292
baalroo said:
Look, just because YOU don't understand how to create a business model in an industry where the digital media part of a package is free, doesn't mean there aren't any such models out there. Also, for the record if people like Carol Kaye and Victor Wooten aren't part of the system that you are referring to as "the man" (which is a bit of an immature viewpoint btw) then I don't know who is.

Next, where are you pulling these numbers from? Do you have a source for this "30%-50% drop in income" for indie artists or did it just sound like a good number to throw out? I guess the explosion of the "indie artist" in the last 5 to 10 years (fueled mostly by filesharing and internet discussion forums) just flew completely under your radar? Maybe all these young artists making a living wage and touring and selling (yeah, SELLING) records and other merch directly to their fans is just a mirage?

I really don't think it's necessary to explain that just because the paradigm has shifted, it doesn't automatically mean that there's no more money to be made. Let's take your example of instructional videos. If someone wants to make a great instructional site these days and SELL it to the public with minimal threat of people pirating their work, they can simply create an encrypted pay site that hosts all the instructional information in a streaming only format. The person who would have traditionally paid the $30 or $40 for a VHS or DVD now pays a monthly fee for access to the site, IN FACT with this model the instructors can continuously make updates and add lessons and keep a customer "on the hook" for WAY more than the simple one time purchase that would have been made in the previous generations business model. There are examples like this for every single issue you can bring up with pirating that level the playing field and create a money making environment for those who are entrepreneurially minded.

You folks act like the music business has been a static thing and the rules for how media is sold and distributed where printed up in the back of the bible. Business changes as technology changes and smart people will find ways to profit off of those changes while the old guard cry and moan that their old business models no longer work.

Quit beating a dead horse, get on board, and make some money.
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so if someone doesn't "get on board" with this view or business model, then it's ok to steal their work? i'm not sure what you are getting at.
 
#293
Tim C. said:
If a citizen votes for a politician, that politician wins an election, and then goes on to embezzle millions of dollars - should the voter go to jail as an "accomplice" to theft and corruption?

No offense intended to anybody here, but all this second- and third-party guilt crap is really, really idiotic. :scowl:
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No the voters should not got to jail as accomplices, but anyone that knew that the politician was planning on committing a crime and provided a way for that crime to occur should go to Jail as they are accomplices. This is what happens when torrent sites provide links to those that pirate copyrighted material. You may think that second and third parties are innocent because they claim to have no knowledge of this activity, but I contend they should be more knowledgeable about who they promote on their website as that is what their business is all about. I think its crap that there is a certain segment of society that thinks they are entitled to copy whatever they want for free because technology provides a means to do so!
 
#294
Roy Vogt said:
I would tend to be a little uncivil if I were attempting to shut down what I perceived to be the theft of a work I created (granted she may be misfiring and mistaken at the target). Sorry, but I've got just a little bit too much Texas Redneck in my nature to not protect me and mine.
I would have a total breakdown of Civility, for example, if I found someone in the process of liberating my bass and amp from the back of my car because "music should be free"....
Click to expand...

Hell yeah!
 
#295
baalroo said:
Look, just because YOU don't understand how to create a business model in an industry where the digital media part of a package is free, doesn't mean there aren't any such models out there. Also, for the record if people like Carol Kaye and Victor Wooten aren't part of the system that you are referring to as "the man" (which is a bit of an immature viewpoint btw) then I don't know who is.

Next, where are you pulling these numbers from? Do you have a source for this "30%-50% drop in income" for indie artists or did it just sound like a good number to throw out? I guess the explosion of the "indie artist" in the last 5 to 10 years (fueled mostly by filesharing and internet discussion forums) just flew completely under your radar? Maybe all these young artists making a living wage and touring and selling (yeah, SELLING) records and other merch directly to their fans is just a mirage?

I really don't think it's necessary to explain that just because the paradigm has shifted, it doesn't automatically mean that there's no more money to be made. Let's take your example of instructional videos. If someone wants to make a great instructional site these days and SELL it to the public with minimal threat of people pirating their work, they can simply create an encrypted pay site that hosts all the instructional information in a streaming only format. The person who would have traditionally paid the $30 or $40 for a VHS or DVD now pays a monthly fee for access to the site, IN FACT with this model the instructors can continuously make updates and add lessons and keep a customer "on the hook" for WAY more than the simple one time purchase that would have been made in the previous generations business model. There are examples like this for every single issue you can bring up with pirating that level the playing field and create a money making environment for those who are entrepreneurially minded.

You folks act like the music business has been a static thing and the rules for how media is sold and distributed where printed up in the back of the bible. Business changes as technology changes and smart people will find ways to profit off of those changes while the old guard cry and moan that their old business models no longer work.

Quit beating a dead horse, get on board, and make some money.
Click to expand...

No problem-kindly send me the fruit of your labor for free-will you?
 
#297
Just look at the instructional DVD's(or most segments from them) that are available for free on youtube and all the other internet forums. That has been uploaded with out the artist consent or knowledge.



These instructional DVD's didn't start out free. All the money that went into producing and marketing the artist product came from some where and usually from the view point of hopefully making a profit. The fruit of all that work ends up on youtube for 1000's to take for free.


Any % is to much to have taken,bootlegged, borrowed with out asking, stealing,etc.
 
#298
I've got a great idea, anyone who reads my posts in this thread owes me $1. Obviously I'm expending energy and time to write my posts and I expect to be paid for it, nevermind the fact that I've chosen a medium in which you can obviously read my posts without paying for them. I am the artist of my posts and should be allowed to determine their worth. Man, you guys are going to owe me so much money, I'm so excited.

p.s. DON'T YOU DARE STEAL MY POSTS (and by "steal" I of course mean "use for your own personal enjoyment without paying me my dollar") you dirty no go thieves and pirates.
 
#299
baalroo said:
I've got a great idea, anyone who reads my posts in this thread owes me $1. Obviously I'm expending energy and time to write my posts and I expect to be paid for it, nevermind the fact that I've chosen a medium in which you can obviously read my posts without paying for them. I am the artist of my posts and should be allowed to determine their worth. Man, you guys are going to owe me so much money, I'm so excited.

p.s. DON'T YOU DARE STEAL MY POSTS (and by "steal" I of course mean "use for your own personal enjoyment without paying me my dollar") you dirty no go thieves and pirates.
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That sounds like an issue with the talk bass administrator(s). :)
 
#300
baalroo said:
I've got a great idea, anyone who reads my posts in this thread owes me $1. Obviously I'm expending energy and time to write my posts and I expect to be paid for it, nevermind the fact that I've chosen a medium in which you can obviously read my posts without paying for them. I am the artist of my posts and should be allowed to determine their worth. Man, you guys are going to owe me so much money, I'm so excited.

p.s. DON'T YOU DARE STEAL MY POSTS (and by "steal" I of course mean "use for your own personal enjoyment without paying me my dollar") you dirty no go thieves and pirates.
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c'mon man....that's a poor comparison.
 

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