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Double Bass "It practically prevents upright feedback"
- Thread starter acubass
- Start date
Well, as mentioned earlier, if its just a cab, perhaps with passive crossover components, then you just can't change the laws of physics, at least in our normal experience in this universe. Whereas I've read a number of posts by members who like Schroeder cabinets, JSCHRO7376's unsubstantiated remark needs some form of proof considering all the history to the contrary. I've never heard or used any Schroeder cabs, so from that aspect, I can't comment at all on their cabs. But I'm surprised that any speaker system manufacturer whose knowledgeable about acoustics could make such a "loaded" statement without expecting some questions being raised. So far, he hasn't responded and so I'm a little disappointed in his lack of being more forthcoming, if he is in fact the owner of the company.
BTW, he hasn't responded to Jeremy Allen's post regarding usage of this forum by commercial members, nor has he updated his profile, at least from what I can tell.
:-(
Lloyd Howard
BTW, he hasn't responded to Jeremy Allen's post regarding usage of this forum by commercial members, nor has he updated his profile, at least from what I can tell.
:-(
Lloyd Howard
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
Agreed. Making bold controversial marketing claims and then trolling internet forums dropping half hearted attempts at defending yourself is not the kind of behavior that endears consumers to sellers in a market this small. You want to play in this sandbox We expect full transparency. You can't just test the water with your toe and slip out the back door.
I sign everything I write with my full disclosure. If you don't like it you can send me an email, call me on the phone, or show up at my front door. Moreover if you don't like what I say you can respond by not sending any money my way and encouraging your friends and colleagues to do the same.
You wanna play on the internet? Stand up or shut up.
I sign everything I write with my full disclosure. If you don't like it you can send me an email, call me on the phone, or show up at my front door. Moreover if you don't like what I say you can respond by not sending any money my way and encouraging your friends and colleagues to do the same.
You wanna play on the internet? Stand up or shut up.
Hey guys, cut Jorg a little slack here. I've used a bunch of his cabinets for upright and bass guitar since he founded the company several years ago, and have had very good luck with them, particularly when I know I'm going to need to play very loudly. I have never had any issues with feedback when his cabinets have been on the gig, although I have no idea what causes that. The cabinets may not get you the completely HiFi sound you are seeking, but they are particularly effective on doubling gigs where volume needs to be high.
I currently own two of his Mini12 cabinets and one of the Mini10 cabinets. He has a very small operation without gobs of engineers hanging about, but the cabinets have performed very well indeed. More importantly, with the exception of the Zeus-like service provided by Rick Jones of AI, nobody has ever been more responsive and customer focused than Jorg. He has also been the subject of some very nasty and mean-spirited attacks by people on Talkbass on the electric side, in the past, who attempted to attack and tear him down for no apparent reason. You may not like the fact that he has not responded with detailed engineering data, but please don't attack him personally--he is a good guy who cares dearly about his customers and his products.
Erik Hansen
I currently own two of his Mini12 cabinets and one of the Mini10 cabinets. He has a very small operation without gobs of engineers hanging about, but the cabinets have performed very well indeed. More importantly, with the exception of the Zeus-like service provided by Rick Jones of AI, nobody has ever been more responsive and customer focused than Jorg. He has also been the subject of some very nasty and mean-spirited attacks by people on Talkbass on the electric side, in the past, who attempted to attack and tear him down for no apparent reason. You may not like the fact that he has not responded with detailed engineering data, but please don't attack him personally--he is a good guy who cares dearly about his customers and his products.
Erik Hansen
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
This is compelling. We have asked for more clarification of this claim because if he does have some handle on this it is a significant step forward in DB amplification. So far we've got nothing but marketing which in the DB world carries very little weight.
That is not germain here. The level of sophistication takes a hit on the EB side with it's larger audience and high troll factor. We want specifics. I'm calling him out on his veiled responses, not his engineering or customer service or anything else. He stuck his nose in the door.LowNote said:
Haven't seen a peep about that yet. What we have isLowNote said:
An orchestra player's opinion about feedback through an amp is not relevant given their usual mode of playing without one.
Telling me you have "best engineer teams" is akin to saying "trust me".
I'm asking why should we?
You say it practically eliminates feedback and we're saying prove it.
Phil, I can see why you want a technical expanation of how these cabinets prevent feedback. But, I can also see several reasons why that would not be provided by Mr. Schroeder.
(1) The expanation may provide information that he does not want to share with his competitors.
(2) Providing an explanation may induce a lot of discussion by people who are not qualified to determine the validity of the claims, and even if everything that is stated (by the vendor) is correct the outcome may not be favorable to him.
(3) The people that are most qualified to discuss the validity of the technical method are speaker designers, and therefore likely to be competitors.
(4) The moderators asked Mr. Schroeder to review the forum's policy regarding vendors discussing their products. These policies, may or may not (as I've not read them), limit what he can say on this topic. These constraints may contribute to making it undesirable, or infeasible, for him to engage in productive discussion of the issue.
Mr. Schroeder has invited interested individuals to contact him for discussion, but it doesn't appear that anyone has...
Personally, I would prefer to see someone do some kind of test of the cabinets to study the claim. Maybe Tom Bowlus could do that with his new magazine, or maybe Mr. Schroeder would consent to sending a cabinet out for a few players on this forum to try.
FWIW,
Jim
ps. I don't own any Schroeder cabinets, have never played through any, and have never met Mr. Schroeder. I have no interest, other than curiousity, in this topic.
(1) The expanation may provide information that he does not want to share with his competitors.
(2) Providing an explanation may induce a lot of discussion by people who are not qualified to determine the validity of the claims, and even if everything that is stated (by the vendor) is correct the outcome may not be favorable to him.
(3) The people that are most qualified to discuss the validity of the technical method are speaker designers, and therefore likely to be competitors.
(4) The moderators asked Mr. Schroeder to review the forum's policy regarding vendors discussing their products. These policies, may or may not (as I've not read them), limit what he can say on this topic. These constraints may contribute to making it undesirable, or infeasible, for him to engage in productive discussion of the issue.
Mr. Schroeder has invited interested individuals to contact him for discussion, but it doesn't appear that anyone has...
Personally, I would prefer to see someone do some kind of test of the cabinets to study the claim. Maybe Tom Bowlus could do that with his new magazine, or maybe Mr. Schroeder would consent to sending a cabinet out for a few players on this forum to try.
FWIW,
Jim
ps. I don't own any Schroeder cabinets, have never played through any, and have never met Mr. Schroeder. I have no interest, other than curiousity, in this topic.
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
I agree with all of this.
....and if this is the case he should have remained silent on this forum in the first place.
My criticism only began with his comment.
There are several folks here in this thread who have extensive experience in the sound reinforcement business who have asked for details or who have commented on the unlikelihood of the advertising's claims being true due to the science involved. Neither is a speaker manufacturer or competitor.
Actually, if you read the commercial user policy, the only meaningful limits on commercial user participation are on making unsubstantiated claims about the product in question or promoting it by talking it up without providing details in response to questions by non-commercial forum members:
CUP said:
The offer is an admirable one, but there's no way to know if anyone has taken him up on it or not. However, the issue at hand is that there is a claim that been questioned in the OP of this thread which has not been addressed other than to be repeated almost verbatim. Phil's breakdown/assessment of the situation in his last post is pretty much right on the money. No one is "against" Jorg at this point, but those who question the veracity of the ad's claim are pointing out that they have as yet seen nothing to substantiate it, which is unarguably true at this juncture.
I'd like to see this, too, especially as I write the DB equipment reviews for Tom's magazine. If I am sent one of Jorg's cabinets to review, I promise to be as scientific and objective in my assessment as I can, and to include soundclips of all items reviewed as part of the review.
Ditto.
I did, and his answer while scientifically unconvincing - to a skeptic like me anyway - was polite, friendly, and fairly prompt. And I'm keeping it private. It would be a shame if anybody assumed that no TBer contacted Jorg, just because nobody publicised his private replies - wouldn't it?
- Apr 3, 2003
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You know, that is an interesting suggestion. Chris Fitzgerald is our 'upright specialist' at Bass Gear Magazine, though Phil (Uncletoad) and Arnold Schnitzer are also on staff, so we have a few guys who know their way around the doghouse, if you know what I mean. To date, our bench-testing methodology has not incorporated any tests aimed at measuring how resistant (or susceptible to) feedback a given cab might be. I could see some use in such a test, though. But it may be that anectdotal evidence (in other words, how did it do on the gig?) may still be the best measuring stick.
Good idea, though! I'll look into what we can do in this regard.
That all being said, I do think that the frequency response charts which we already do should be at least somewhat useful in trying to decide which cabs might be more or less susceptible to feedback.
Tom.
I think that between the benchtest results and the anecdotal evidence results, enough information could be gathered to be useful.
Ha ha ha, 100 feet away!
I don't see anywhere on his site where he makes this extraordinary claim, did he change the site or was it always just Musician's Friend?I'd love to have one of these, I volunteer for testing! I hate feedback, and am in a constant battle in a small room.
Send me a free cabinet please, $650 is a little steep.
I have no interest in bashing any designer/manufacturer. I have studied speaker cabinet design and constructed many different cabinet designs in the past. I'm sure that there are many engineers out there that have much more experience than me, but I can hold my own in a discussion.
There are always new sciences and innovative designers that advance the technology that we use. There are also abstract claims made that are misleading. I'm sure that Mr. Schroeder is a good guy trying to make a good product. No one is going to get rich making speakers for bass players.Since Mr. Schroeder has commented in this forum, I think it only fair that in the interest of understanding that he uses this forum to explain his claims.
While being fairly opinionated, I love to hear about innovative new tecnologies that prove my presumptions wrong. I just play bass and want to sound the best that I can. Feedback is not too difficult to understand. When volume increases it can excite certain resonant frequencies and cause a feedback loop. The only way that I know of to suppress it is to have an active microphone to analize and actively eq feedback frequencies, to dampen the instrument physically, or to move away from the feedback source (the speaker). The only other way is to have a speaker that is more diectional, but I doubt that this would be the case as the lower frequencies that feedback would be uneffected as these frequencies are more omnidirectional.
So---- if there is a new technology that can suppress feedback in a passive cab I'd love to hear about it. I'd buy one!
There are always new sciences and innovative designers that advance the technology that we use. There are also abstract claims made that are misleading. I'm sure that Mr. Schroeder is a good guy trying to make a good product. No one is going to get rich making speakers for bass players.Since Mr. Schroeder has commented in this forum, I think it only fair that in the interest of understanding that he uses this forum to explain his claims.
While being fairly opinionated, I love to hear about innovative new tecnologies that prove my presumptions wrong. I just play bass and want to sound the best that I can. Feedback is not too difficult to understand. When volume increases it can excite certain resonant frequencies and cause a feedback loop. The only way that I know of to suppress it is to have an active microphone to analize and actively eq feedback frequencies, to dampen the instrument physically, or to move away from the feedback source (the speaker). The only other way is to have a speaker that is more diectional, but I doubt that this would be the case as the lower frequencies that feedback would be uneffected as these frequencies are more omnidirectional.
So---- if there is a new technology that can suppress feedback in a passive cab I'd love to hear about it. I'd buy one!
I've been reading all of this and was hesitant to enter the quagmire. Frequency response won't tell you all that much. What may give you a clue is a close examination of the off-axis response and how that might have been tailored. This is what David1234 was referring to and I think he's right on target. You can only do so much about feedback.
An important question to ask is how any design factors that are aimed at preventing feedback affect (perhaps adversely), the desired response. I can think of a number of ways that this all might be attempted as well as how the effectiveness might be tested. I, too, would be happy to learn about the physical acoustics behind the claim. For now, I remain skeptical. Gee, if I had a nickel for every speaker manufacturer that made an amazing claim... After decades of reading loudspeaker patent reviews, I know that many claims must be taken with more than a few grains of salt.
- May 6, 2003
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- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
- Apr 3, 2003
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- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
I have been able to effectively fight feedback using a parametric EQ, so I do think that specific frequency response has something to do with the feedback equation. If you have spent a lot of time toying with a parametric EQ on a gig trying to get rid of feedback, you may have an idea as to which frequencies are the most problematic for you and your bass. So, in that scenario, seeing the response of a given cab may be helpful in choosing a cab that is hopefully less sensitive in the frequencies where you most often have issues.
Just a thought...
Tom, I understand but, as you undoubtedly know, when you use a parametric tone-shaping circuit or other type to fight feedback, you usually are attenuating the output of the cabinet within a narrow range of frequencies. Those frequencies are the ones that are excited by the interaction of the cabinet and the particular resonances of the room it is in. The particular frequencies will, of course, change from room to room. Now, for argument's sake, if one noticed that the problems often occur within certain narrow bands of the spectrum, one could attempt to build a cabinet that had nulls in the response within those bands. That would seem a very foolish thing to do. It would certainly affect the desired characteristics of the cabinet.
On the other hand, one would want to avoid cabinets with strong resonances that would show up as peaks in their frequency response. Those would likely be more susceptible to feedback than others with a flatter response.
In summary, I'd say that looking at frequency-response curves might give you insight into which cabs would be atypically susceptible to feedback. In the absence of wild frequency-response anomalies, however, I don't think the curves will do you much good.
I've even tried building a rig of stereo parametrics / stereo amp / stereo cab.
The idea was that if the most prominent feedback note has something to do with the relative position of my cab to my bass, then two differently positioned cabs would have two different feedback notes, and notching each individually wouldn't have to cut holes in my overall tone. This system is pretty much too complex to use though, since rooms change during gigs!
If there really is a cab that makes life better, I want to know about it and lug only one of them.
The idea was that if the most prominent feedback note has something to do with the relative position of my cab to my bass, then two differently positioned cabs would have two different feedback notes, and notching each individually wouldn't have to cut holes in my overall tone. This system is pretty much too complex to use though, since rooms change during gigs!
If there really is a cab that makes life better, I want to know about it and lug only one of them.
