It's all relative...

[Pitbull Growl]

I'm not durrently gigging, but I've got auditions lined up w/a few local bands. I'm into the Hard Rock/Metal type stuff and that usually comes w/2 guitarists. I've got the 2 Mesa cabs (215 & 1516) and have 2 EVM-18B's comming my way to cab up as well. I figured by placing the 215 on the drummer's Floor tom side, and the 1516 on the hi-hat side both guitarists & the drummer have good reference points to the bass. The Mesa 15's offer a buttload of punch to cut thru the mix, but the lows lack a li'l bit. My solution was to add a pair of 118s. I'll put the 118s on the inside (closer to the drum kit) and the 15 loaded cabs outside of that. Then the guitar cabs will go on the outside of the bass cabs. By my line of thinking.... this way the kick drum is direct center, the bass is stereo just outside the drum kit, and the guitars are just outside of that. Seems reasonable that the lower freq.'s would be more center channeled, then as the freq. get higher there's more stereo imaging/seperation to them. (think 5.1 surround sound)


Mind you this is all theoretical @ this point, but it makes sense to me.

 

[Buster Brown]

You know, I'm glad that this thread FINALLY started!!

I have fallen into the "all of the above" categories on more than one occasion...and that's unfortunate, I guess...

I started out (way back when) with loud-assed amps and cabs...used them for years and then slowly...ever so slowly began falling into that "purist" trap that I think, grabs us all at one time or another.

I have since reverted BACK to my roots. Yes, I still go to practice with the MarkBass Gear - but when it comes to shows - the big boys come out. If it isn't flapping my jeans - it ain't loud enough.

I play ROCK, Always have. I don't play coffee house jazz stuff. This "minimalist" crap has, lately, been driving me goofy. I really enjoy looking behind me and seeing a 6X10 and a 8X10 cab with either a Acoustic 370 or the SVT4 Pro in it's rack. Our Guitar players use Marshall Amps and Cabs, our keyboardist uses a B3 with a Leslie and a Fender Rhodes. We have a fairly decent PA with Crown amps (800X5) and like the OP a good monitor system. Do we use it all the time?? Of course not! But when the situation calls for it - we're ready! That, my friends, is called ROCK and ROLL!!!!

And yes....I'm in my 50s!!!

 

[BartmanPDX]

I'll throw in my two cents.

I play in a fairly loud cover band that plays a wide variety of music, usually in smaller bars and clubs. We can get pretty loud in these small clubs even though we're just a three piece (guitar, bass, drums) plus a lead singer. As such, I never put my bass through the PA (though we do put it in the drummer's monitor), nor do we put the kit or the guitar through the PA. It's still plenty loud, and we play some heavy stuff (Alice in Chains, AC/DC, etc.) as well. Mostly it's just classic rock.

I use a Genz Shuttle 6 and a Bergantino AE410. It's got more than enough whump to fill any of the venues we play (unless it's an outdoor gig with a full PA, in which case I just use a DI and the rig for stage monitoring for me). I get a nice growly aggressive rock tone. It's also pretty portable for how big the sound is. I have a separate power amp (QSC PLX1804) which I could use if I ran out of power with the Genz, but that hasn't really been an issue. If anything, I'm usually a little too loud.

 

[rbonner]

Good for you Buster, I'm still searching for my roots.

"I'm on a mission from god, we're putting the band back together" only works about three times. "If you build it they will come" doesn't seem to work at all.

BOB

 

[Sundogue]

I'm glad somebody said this! I'm sick and tired of milquetoast rock. Rock is about being on the ragged edge of the abyss!

Good idea of placing rigs in context too. That is something typically lacking in these discussions.

Unfortunately, my rock band has been in a muddling around mode lately and haven't been playing many real shows so I don't have much to add really.

Well here's the thing in my neck of the woods (literally...as in north central Wisconsin). Rock music ain't dead...not by a long shot. Rock bands are dropping like flies all around us, yet we are getting bigger and bigger. We are one of the few bands around here that have a great following and it's growing.

In talking with people in the crowd, bar owners, etc. there is a resurgence in loud, balls to the wall, real hard rock music. We have people that have never seen us before come up to us after a show and tell us (all in a similar way), "We expected to hear just another cover band, and now we feel like we went to a rock concert!" I'm not talkin' the new heavy metal but the classics and newer stuff that is similar. I think even the economy is partly responsible. People want to party, even if it's partying to forget their economic woes. And they want to party HARD. We get hired not only because we are a damn good band, but because we play rock like it was meant to be played. Crank it up and take no prisoners. Play rock music and party like there is no tomorrow. And the crowds are responding...and thus, so are the bar owners.

One thing I've noticed about our band versus the bands that have recently quit. We play it like we mean it and that also means loud. In trying to appease everyone, these other "softer" bands (playing a lot of the same material mind you) lost their appeal with most everyone. We are one of the few left standing. Everyone knows if you want to rock your ass off, you go see our band.

My point being, while the scene may seem to have dried up, I blame the lame-ass "muzacians" for not having the cajones to put their music where their dream is. I've seen a lot of great musicians that play music like AC/DC to absolute perfection and still stink up the joint because they play it like they were stuck on an elevator. They don't just lack volume, they lack energy (which is in part due to the lack of volume). People want to be moved, so move them!

By the way, we also play weddings (and believe it or not, two of our musicians play trumpet and we do polkas of all things) just to pick up some fabulous $$$. But guess what? Even those gigs where we are requested to play those for the blue hairs (along with some traditional country, etc.), almost without fail, the wedding party and the crowd in general start demanding rock, and to turn it up...LOUD. Some crazy sh*t happening. A wedding band that gets requested to put on a rock show? You bet...every wedding gig we have now is like this. Hell, we had a guy who had to be in his 70's come up and ask for Metallica! I am NOT kidding.

Rock ain't dead, so put a new battery in your pacemaker and let's start a new revolution. Maybe it's not happening where you live and play, but someone's gotta start takin' it back. I spent pretty much the past 7 years or so (and even the past couple of years with this current band) playing lame muzak rock. I finally had enough and told the band that we needed to step it up a notch and start rockin' our asses off and stop being background wallpaper. Once we did, the whole music scene around us responded.

OK...I'm jumpin' off the soapbox. Carry on.

 

[Buster Brown]

Good for you Buster, I'm still searching for my roots.

"I'm on a mission from god, we're putting the band back together" only works about three times. "If you build it they will come" doesn't seem to work at all.

BOB

HAHA!!! I hear you!! Right now, I'm on my second time! And, I might add...having one helluva good time!!

But seriously folks....we all tend to be a little like sheep, from time to time...you know, flavor of the month and what not. I dunno, for me, I'm sick of all the experimenting - trying to find "the sound"...hell, I had it right the first time!!

 

[Buster Brown]

Well here's the thing in my neck of the woods (literally...as in north central Wisconsin). Rock music ain't dead...not by a long shot. Rock bands are dropping like flies all around us, yet we are getting bigger and bigger. We are one of the few bands around here that have a great following and it's growing.

In talking with people in the crowd, bar owners, etc. there is a resurgence in loud, balls to the wall, real hard rock music. I'm not talkin' the new heavy metal but the classics and newer stuff that is similar. I think even the economy is partly responsible. People want to party, even if it's partying to forget their economic woes. And they want to party HARD. We get hired not only because we are a damn good band, but because we play rock like it was meant to be played. Crank it up and take no prisoners. Play rock music and party like there is no tomorrow. And the crowds are responding...and thus, so are the bar owners.

One thing I've noticed about our band and the bands that have recently quit. We play it like we mean it and that also means loud. In trying to appease everyone, these other "softer" bands (playing a lot of the same material mind you) lost thier appeal with most everyone. We are one of the few left standing. Everyone knows if you want to rock your ass off, you go see our band.

My point being, while the scene may seem to have dried up, I blame the lame-ass "muzacians" for not having the cajones to put their career where their music is. I've seen a lot of great musicians that play music like AC/DC to absolute perfection and still stink up the joint because they play it like they were stuck on an elevator. They don't just lack volume, they lack energy (which is in part due to the lack of volume). People want to be moved, so move them!

By the way, we also play weddings (and believe it or not, two of our musicians play trumpet and we do polkas of all things) just to pick up some fabulous $$$. But guess what? Even those gigs where we are requested to play those for the blue hairs (along with some traditional country, etc.), almost without fail, the wedding party and the crowd in general start demanding rock, and to turn it up...LOUD. Some crazy sh*t happening.

Rock ain't dead, so put a new battery in your pacemaker and let's start a new revolution. Maybe it happening where you live and play, but someone's gotta start takin' it back.

OK...I'm jumpin' off the soapbox. Carry on.

Dude! You Da Man!!

 

[FunkMetalBass]

I use a Sansamp RBI and a Samson X2800 amp through a Carvin 1x18 and 4x10. I play in heavier rock bands, so I frequently play with mulitple guitarists and drummers, creating the need for the volume I have.

In most clubs that I play, there is PA support, but there is no bass run through the monitors, so I have to rely on my amp to hear myself. I could get by with a smaller cab, but having the 4x10 lifted to ear level allows me to hear a better overall mix on stage. the 1x18 is pretty much pointless except for feeling the raw power of the low F# string.

I don't need my entire stack for most situations, true, but I'd rather have too much and not use some of it than have too little and no way to compensate.

 

[4Mal]

Passinwind and I play mostly the same rooms. I play in two basic scenarios.

The Island Swings is an acoutsic trio where my band mates are multi-instrumentalists sharing duties on acoustic flattop or archtop, tenor guitar, mando, mando-cello or banjo. Me ? I always play my old Godin Acoustibass. We occaisionally have a tenor sax guy who doubles on tablas sit in. As we do reggae / calypso songs and a bunch of western swing I can rest easy knowning that I hold down the bass chair in the worlds only yodeling and reggae band ;~) It is reggae'billy for sure.

My other scenario is with a surf, blues rock, country rock quartet. 40 watt Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and Deville guitar amps and we mic the bass drum. Fun for getting my ya ya's out - no question. In the context of what I used to think of as loud, it isn't. It is however as loud as I want to play these days. I do not dig tinitus and I do not enjoy playing using hearing protection. If I need it - I'm in the wrong band. I don't lean on volume for getting the 'tude across. My playing can do that at a moderate level just fine. I will completely agree that playing AC/DC at lounge jazz volumes is silly and sad at the same time. Kind of like Alvin and The Chipmunks covering "We've got big balls"... some things should just never transpire.

I do it with as little gear as possible while still being able to hear myself, balance with the other folks and keep the sound quality in line. To that end the smallest possible is ...

1 side of my Yamaha PA (EMX5000/12) to drive either a Bag End 15 or an Avatar SB112 - the other side of the board might be driving a 1x12 & horn PA cab. Sounds like a drag ? but the Yammy has 250 watts into 8 ohms and sweepable mids. I also have stomp EQ and Sonic maximizer and compression to throw at it if necesssary but it really never is. The Godin bass I use in that context is actve with a 3 band on board pre. It works and sounds a lot better than most folks here would expect.

If I'm not also providing PA, then it's the EA Micro 300 into the Bag End. Maybe not large but it can shake some small room booty.

If I'm doing the rock 'n roll band thing with 2 (or 3 last time guitars) and drums - then WT-800 bridged and 2 15's get's the job done for me.

Last scenario is that Passinwind and I live in an area where there is a pretty high quality open mic scene. There, I carry my bass and a cable and sponge off of him for a rig ;~) - hey, he's getting paid as 'house band' - I'm just showing up for the vino and the jam.

 

[Passinwind]

OK...I'm jumpin' off the soapbox. Carry on.

Beautiful.

We actually agree far more than not bro...

 

[BurningSkies]

I've played those big gigs too. I've done the Limelight on Rock N' Roll church night back when that club existed in NYC.

Around here, the big 'rock' clubs aren't any more. The guy who used to book Motorhead and Iggy Pop and countless metal bands now books the stage at the BBQ in town. Its not that the music isn't loud, its that the rooms are smaller. The coffee houses in town host full bands and it's not acoustic either...its a smaller room, 150 people filling a joint instead of 400 in a bigger room. Are there still metal and hard rock acts? Yep. They're playing in the dives outside the city limits to a handful of loyal friends and fans.

The guys in hardcore bands and punk bands (and I've done that circuit too and lived with several long time area promoters and national touring band members) are playing in the local community center and basement parties. The days of the sunday afternoon hardcore show at the metal club with a massive PA and stacks of gear was really fun...and now it's ratcheted back too.

In the last few theater shows I've done, I was told to turn down...and that's with me only bringing ONE cab! Hell, I'm the bass player in a reggae band...I'm the one who's allowed to be loud!

To be honest, I enjoy playing BBQ's and corner blues joints. They may be small but everyone in the room wants to see you and hear you and half the crowd is local musicianship checking out everyone else. I like playing the college gigs we do, kids start dancing early and go to the last note. Big and loud shows are fun too...

 

[Buster Brown]

I've played those big gigs too. I've done the Limelight on Rock N' Roll church night back when that club existed in NYC.

Around here, the big 'rock' clubs aren't any more. The guy who used to book Motorhead and Iggy Pop and countless metal bands now books the stage at the BBQ in town. Its not that the music isn't loud, its that the rooms are smaller. The coffee houses in town host full bands and it's not acoustic either...its a smaller room, 150 people filling a joint instead of 400 in a bigger room. Are there still metal and hard rock acts? Yep. They're playing in the dives outside the city limits to a handful of loyal friends and fans.

The guys in hardcore bands and punk bands (and I've done that circuit too and lived with several long time area promoters and national touring band members) are playing in the local community center and basement parties. The days of the sunday afternoon hardcore show at the metal club with a massive PA and stacks of gear was really fun...and now it's ratcheted back too.

In the last few theater shows I've done, I was told to turn down...and that's with me only bringing ONE cab! Hell, I'm the bass player in a reggae band...I'm the one who's allowed to be loud!

To be honest, I enjoy playing BBQ's and corner blues joints. They may be small but everyone in the room wants to see you and hear you and half the crowd is local musicianship checking out everyone else. I like playing the college gigs we do, kids start dancing early and go to the last note. Big and loud shows are fun too...

You know, you are right. However, I don't think it's any more complex than folks have just "forgotten" what it "used" to be like. I don't know if it is the 40th Anniversary of Woodstock or what, but I am definitely seeing a resurgence in folks wanting to party to loud rock...to dance their cares away or whatever. We just played a job last weekend for 1200 loud screaming people that ranged in age from 18 to 65...go figure.

Hell, I LOVE listening to the 60s on 6 on Sirius....maybe we need to start a movement...

 

[SteveC]

Well here's the thing in my neck of the woods (literally...as in north central Wisconsin). Rock music ain't dead...not by a long shot.

We play it like we mean it and that also means loud.They don't just lack volume, they lack energy (which is in part due to the lack of volume).

Maybe it's not happening where you live and play, but someone's gotta start takin' it back. I finally had enough and told the band that we needed to step it up a notch and start rockin' our asses off and stop being background wallpaper. Once we did, the whole music scene around us responded.

OK...I'm jumpin' off the soapbox. Carry on.

Unfortunately, in this neck of the woods loud rock is dead.

I really disagree that playing like you mean it and loud MUST go hand in hand, same with energy and volume, but that's for a different thread I think.

If we rocked our asses off, we'd be asked to turn down and/or leave and not be asked back.

Just giving the situation in another neck of the woods.

 

[greenboy]

A lot of people substitute high volume for a lack of substantial musical ideas and energy and whatnot. Oh well. Some people manage to have both substance and volume, and that can be cool in the right places too. It got my attention at some point and attracted me to playing and mixing.

 

[rbonner]

Unfortunately, in this neck of the woods loud rock is dead.

I really disagree that playing like you mean it and loud MUST go hand in hand, same with energy and volume, but that's for a different thread I think.

If we rocked our asses off, we'd be asked to turn down and/or leave and not be asked back.

Just giving the situation in another neck of the woods.

Yes you really need to know your venue or you will get tossed. Been there before. Was a Minneapolis bar gig tryout... Well gee sir we can turn down, NOPE you won't out...

Apparently loud bands tend to creap back up acording to this guy... It was 1971 anyway, I learned-recovered.

BOB

 

[Buster Brown]

Yes you really need to know your venue or you will get tossed. Been there before. Was a Minneapolis bar gig tryout... Well gee sir we can turn down, NOPE you won't out...

Apparently loud bands tend to creap back up acording to this guy... It was 1971 anyway, I learned-recovered.

BOB

Although I WILL admit that the ONLY time we were tossed was in 1972....we played "The Pusher" at a Catholic School dance.....the kids loved it....the Nuns? Not so much....


As for the club dude "stating the band will creep back up" Well....he should do his homework BEFORE he hires a band. He either wants ACDC or he wants "Peter, Paul and Mary" can't have it both ways!

 

[Buster Brown]

Unfortunately, in this neck of the woods loud rock is dead.

I really disagree that playing like you mean it and loud MUST go hand in hand, same with energy and volume, but that's for a different thread I think.

If we rocked our asses off, we'd be asked to turn down and/or leave and not be asked back.

Just giving the situation in another neck of the woods.

So, help an old man out here....exactly how do you play rock and roll and not "get into it?" And please don't take the question as a criticism. It is not. I am just trying to understand....I mean, I have played probably 2500 clubs over the years and have NEVER been kicked out of one due to being too loud...

Shoot...in most clubs, it is so damn noisy that unless you are fairly loud, the customers will drown you out....

 

[Sundogue]

I am LOVING the way this thread is going. I love that it's in the amp forum (which is where it belongs because this is ALL about what kind of rig gets you through YOUR night, in whatever context that may be).

There is no right or wrong, no good nor bad. It's ALL good. We are all spilling it here and getting our say about what makes us tick, what makes our bands work the way they do, in the places we play...and what rig we need to make it all work for us.

Kudos to everyone who has posted so far. I REALLY appreciate this kind of discussion and am happy that it hasn't turned ugly.

It is really interesting to see what the music scene is like in different places. Here, being loud will get you fired too...but only if you suck. There is nothing worse than a band that is TOO loud AND sucks. And there are plenty of bands around here that do believe Rock is ALL about being loud, but nothing about being good.

I think what sets my band apart from a lot of others in my area is the level of musicianship and also some VERY expensive PA gear (that we know how to set up and run properly). That, and all five of us sing and harmonize (where most other bands here have a lead singer and that's about it). "Suite Madame Blue" by Styx done by us (with me on bass, a keyboard player, two guitars and the drummer) and ALL five of us singing in harmony? No other band around here can pull it off, and when they try, they fail. There isn't anything we can't play and most other bands in this area are relegated to playing some pretty basic and boring standards (and some don't even do those justice).

Have you ever noticed that a band can be super loud but if they are very good and they run a very clean sounding PA, it isn't also obnoxious? That is what we see around here a lot. Rock bands that aren't quite there talent-wise, trying to cover it up by being loud and having a really distorted PA (not only because they don't know how to run it, but because it's weak and/or inferior and they drive it past what it can handle). Their sound is VERY irritating and so it seems too loud, even though our volume is much higher.

And I totally get the point of those not wanting to go deaf or get tinnitus. I agree. I have never worn ear-plugs (30 years of rock music) and still don't and my hearing is very sharp (I've had it tested). We are loud onstage, but it isn't PA loud. Our PA can get pretty intense. I would never want to be that loud onstage. But still, my BX1200 through my two 115's gets pretty damn loud and I wouldn't have it any other way. We aren't loud for the sake of being loud, we're loud because we want our music to be a driving force, a rhythmic pulse that just makes the whole venue come alive. When we are playing the energy between the crowd and us is like one big, giant heartbeat. Zen-like at times.

Keep the discussion going. Anybody else want to chime in with their rig and the situation they are in where they play? Let's hear it!!!

 

[SteveC]

So, help an old man out here....exactly how do you play rock and roll and not "get into it?" And please don't take the question as a criticism. It is not. I am just trying to understand....I mean, I have played probably 2500 clubs over the years and have NEVER been kicked out of one due to being too loud...

Shoot...in most clubs, it is so damn noisy that unless you are fairly loud, the customers will drown you out....

What I meant was I think you can get into it without ridiculous volume levels. Also, around here - lame music scene if you can even call it a scene - many gigs (at least for us) are in bar/restaurant type venues.

One of my bands played a new restaurant/bar venue. We do funkier jams on B-side standards. As the night went on we got a little loud. No one said anything, but you could tell. We have not been asked back, but the guitar player who played with us that night is there with his other band - at a lesser volume.

That's what we're dealing with.

 

[greenboy]

Good PA is a factor. I've heard a lot of crap PA with big amounts of distortion and it SEEMS louder and fatiguing compared to good PA that actually may be quite a bit louder. It really makes a difference to have distortion only where you want it intentionally - like on guitars and maybe bass - instead of everywhere on everything just killing intelligibility and definition and hiding dynamics in the total mix.