Right, that's why I said even a jazzbo can land on his feet once in a while earlier. Try not to skip my posts, bro. You might miss gold!
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Jaco-Good Jazz Musician
- Thread starter jmcdan3
- Start date
Thanks for clearing this up!
I don't think I have heard of anyone who would have pushed his music further than mingus did( this is not to say that there are none who pushed their music to similar reaches).
But although I largely disagree with you, I "see where you're coming from" and may have said similar things when I was your age.;-)
I think it's subjective to which Jaco era we are speaking of. In his prime he was probably one of the greatest jazz bassists who ever lived. In his drunken drugged-up stupor bar fighting bass smashing days he was less. Read his biography by the way, very good, fast read. It's a great story whether you dig his playing or not.
I used to hang at a certain Jazz site...a heavy discourse was omnipresent betwixt the "Free/Out Jazz" crowd & the "Straightahead/Swing/Bop" crowd.
A big issue was the amount of "playing patterns" in Straightahead Jazz vs.
Listen to enough of any player (Coltrane was mentioned earlier) & you should hear some repetition of favourite phrases, riffs, lines, etc.
I agree - but per my subsequent post above, the discussion around Jaco isn't about favoring and using certain licks often - clearly, every player does that. What is said about Jaco was that, far in advance of playing the solo, or recording it, he sat down and decided what he would play, in a similar way to which a singer would sit down and plan a melody to a song he or she is writing. And I also said that it is reasonable to assume that, having done that, Jaco varied the solos slightly night to night.
I think the problem you have in judging Jaco on those terms is that Weather Report was clearly the highlight of his career - but they did not play straight ahead Jazz and Zawinul's innovation was to incorporate more composed elements and textures onto a Jazz sensibility.
Also in WR's music it wasn't a case of : now it's the sax solo for 4 choruses, now it's the piano solo, now it's the bass solo etc.
It was more a case of setting up a groove and everybody can be soloing together or commenting on the groove ...etc.
It was a completely different style of music to what previous Jazz bassists had dealt with and it's really impossible to compare Jaco on a like for like basis with what had gone before
Also in WR's music it wasn't a case of : now it's the sax solo for 4 choruses, now it's the piano solo, now it's the bass solo etc.
It was more a case of setting up a groove and everybody can be soloing together or commenting on the groove ...etc.
It was a completely different style of music to what previous Jazz bassists had dealt with and it's really impossible to compare Jaco on a like for like basis with what had gone before
I think the problem you have in judging Jaco on those terms is that Weather Report was clearly the highlight of his career - but they did not play straight ahead Jazz and Zawinul's innovation was to incorporate more composed elements and textures onto a Jazz sensibility.
Also in WR's music it wasn't a case of : now it's the sax solo for 4 choruses, now it's the piano solo, now it's the bass solo etc.
It was more a case of setting up a groove and everybody can be soloing together or commenting on the groove ...etc.
It was a completely different style of music to what previous Jazz bassists had dealt with and it's really impossible to compare Jaco on a like for like basis with what had gone before
Well said.
That's a good point that I do not think has been made before in any of these Jaco threads.I think the problem you have in judging Jaco on those terms is that Weather Report was clearly the highlight of his career - but they did not play straight ahead Jazz and Zawinul's innovation was to incorporate more composed elements and textures onto a Jazz sensibility.
Also in WR's music it wasn't a case of : now it's the sax solo for 4 choruses, now it's the piano solo, now it's the bass solo etc.
It was more a case of setting up a groove and everybody can be soloing together or commenting on the groove ...etc.
It was a completely different style of music to what previous Jazz bassists had dealt with and it's really impossible to compare Jaco on a like for like basis with what had gone before
May I offer an opinion? First as a disclaimer, my knowledge of great jazz bassists is limited and by no means do I have the breadth of jazz knowledge to give a highly informed comment. But, I know what I like and don't like, and I don't like some of the overly self indulgent noodling that I have heard some people create (i.e. musical pyrotechnics for the sake of show). Second let me say that listening to Jaco playing live with Joni Mitchell on her Shadow's and Light cd, I am continually floored by the musicality and expressiveness of his playing. Sure the technical wizardry is there, but ultimately that is not what draws me in. It is the whole vibe and "rightness" of the choice of notes, time, and space, that makes me think he crossed over the border of "great" into the land of "genius". All I know, is that I like it, and it makes me smile.
Right on Brother.
"In France they kiss on main street", "Good bye pork pie hat" and "free man in Paris" IMO are 3 outstanding examples of all the things you have alluded to in your post.
I think Mingus would have loved Jaco's interpretation of GBPPH. Who says Jaco couldnt play jazz?? Man that tune is one of the GREAT jazz ballad performances of all time...due in no small measure to his superb touch (and Joni's superb vocal and Breckers superb tenor etc etc).
"in France they Kiss on main street" and "Free man in paris" IMHO are two of THE most perfect basslines ever played and recorded period. FMIP Is so damn funky it brings a smile to my face everytime I listen !!
RIP Jaco...you are loved.
Man, we might as well be discussing religion or politics for that matter...this is totaly subjective. My two cents is that you are trying to stir a debate out of this. Well, I would just say that one does not travel in the jazz circles that Jaco did without being able to improv and do lots of other things that most will only ever dream of. Just out of curiousity...how are your improv and sight reading skills?
Just a couple of random thoughts about my hometown boy. (Since I grew up during the 60-70's about 10 minutes away from Jaco's Oakland Park home I tend to be rather protective of Jaco.)
Not withstanding the proximity of where we grew up I only saw Jaco once around 1978 at Park West in Chicago and it was a good thing I had left my bass at my folks home in Ft Lauderdale or else I surely would've thrown it into Lake Michigan. We both had Fender Jazz basses but that it is as far as the resemblence went. I think Jaco was a great innovator on bass guitar and a wonderful composer but the extent to which he was able to do either was, IMO, severely curtailed due to his mental problems. My $.02.
Not withstanding the proximity of where we grew up I only saw Jaco once around 1978 at Park West in Chicago and it was a good thing I had left my bass at my folks home in Ft Lauderdale or else I surely would've thrown it into Lake Michigan. We both had Fender Jazz basses but that it is as far as the resemblence went. I think Jaco was a great innovator on bass guitar and a wonderful composer but the extent to which he was able to do either was, IMO, severely curtailed due to his mental problems. My $.02.
Here are some random thoughts. This thread has me thinking about improvisation and composition. It seems like the allure of "improv" for the listener, is that sense of a "wow" factor related to hearing or seeing someone do something on the fly. But I wondered, is it possible that composition is really improvisation, just over a longer time frame? However, in thinking about it further, I guess that "improv" is more of an immediate response to what is going on around you right then. Kind of like Keanu Reeves dodging bullets in The Matrix. But wouldn't that only be true if you had no idea where things were going musically to begin with? I don't know. I guess the thing for me, (outside of the "holy cow did you see that" factor) is I don't care whether it is improvisation or composition. Ultimately, I just want to be moved by the beauty of something.
However, in thinking about it further, I guess that "improv" is more of an immediate response to what is going on around you right then. Kind of like Keanu Reeves dodging bullets in The Matrix. But wouldn't that only be true if you had no idea where things were going musically to begin with? I don't know. I guess the thing for me, (outside of the "holy cow did you see that" factor) is I don't care whether it is improvisation or composition. Ultimately, I just want to be moved by the beauty of something.
And imnsfho, if dudes like Zawinul hires you for playin in WR, I guess there has to be something right with what youre up to..
I personally don't appreciate most of the recorded music with JP due to personal taste, nothing else, and after readin the biography about him, and checkin out the "modern electric bass" clips on youtube, I am quite amazed by the person and his "attitude" towards music and things in general.
Who love's ya...
D.Don
I'm NOT a jazz musician so please take all of this with a huge helping of salt but I tend to think very few things are actually totally improvised on the spot. To my way of thinking the performer has learned over the course of their career favorite riffs, scales, etc. Experience has taught them how and where these riffs work best in the context of their chosen genre. What we end up hearing is the musician more or less 'arranging' these ideas on stage. I even wonder how much of this is spontaneous. After all after 20-30 yrs playing Stella by Starlight I'm hard pressed to believe that the musician isn't falling back on his experience as to which riff works best where.
Just compare improvising with speaking a language - there are plenty of set constructions, grammar, spelling etc. But beautiful language or poetry go beyond these constraints. So does brilliant improvisation in music. I have touched it a few times playing live and you really feel like you transcend scales and chords and play what you feel, play the music that is deep within yourself - nothing else matters. There are of course many licks, like there are many phrases or sayings, but the genius knows how to weave these into their playing and take them to another level. Jaco quotes "The Rite of Spring" in his "Havona" bass solo. Apparently Charlie Parker used to work common melodies into his improvising when he saw someone in the audience (e.g., a woman wearing a red dress, and hence a song by that name).
It is my bet, hearing his music, his bass playing and him as a person, that he spent quite a long time at this level of transcendence. Like every other genius (or work of genius), it doesn't really matter what anyone here feels - his music and his legacy will endure and be discovered and enjoyed for decades to come.
I don't think there is any need to get defensive about Jaco; rather why don't we celebrate a wonderful musician that greatly advanced the playing of electric bass?
A final note about "composition" and "improvisation". The two are interchangeable. One just happens faster than the other. The end result is music either way
It is my bet, hearing his music, his bass playing and him as a person, that he spent quite a long time at this level of transcendence. Like every other genius (or work of genius), it doesn't really matter what anyone here feels - his music and his legacy will endure and be discovered and enjoyed for decades to come.
I don't think there is any need to get defensive about Jaco; rather why don't we celebrate a wonderful musician that greatly advanced the playing of electric bass?
A final note about "composition" and "improvisation". The two are interchangeable. One just happens faster than the other. The end result is music either way
A final note about "composition" and "improvisation". The two are interchangeable. One just happens faster than the other. The end result is music either way
Thanks for confirming what I had wondered Matty.
This is one of the most edifying threads ive read in a long time. All recent posts greatly appreciated. Thanks guys
You comparing upright with electric bass and improvisation.
Have you heard "Havona" . But I love Mingus and Chambers, as well as Scott Lafaro, Eddie Gomez etc etc. All great. But Jaco did do something to the electric bass that no other before him did.
