Jaco-Good Jazz Musician

[JimK]

It was more a case of setting up a groove and everybody can be soloing together or commenting on the groove ...etc.

Very lucent post, Bruce. I knew you had one left in you.



Anyway, agree that this is always overlooked in these type of threads.
WR was more out of the Bitches Brew/On The Corner vibe vs. the Cookin'/Steamin'/Relaxin/ etc school.

 

[JimK]

"in France they Kiss on main street" and "Free man in paris" IMHO are two of THE most perfect basslines ever played and recorded period. FMIP Is so damn funky it brings a smile to my face everytime I listen !!

Me, too.
Wanna get pumped for a gig? Play "In France..." on the way in your car.

 

[JimK]

And imnsfho, if dudes like Zawinul hires you for playin in WR, I guess there has to be something right with what youre up to...

Early on in my TB past, I posted ad nauseum in these "Jaco threads"...eventually, I narrowed it down to one: If Jaco was good enough for Zawinul & Shorter...that's good enough for me.

Anyway, nice to read some thought-provoking posts in one of these "Jaco threads".
(5 pages & hasn't been Closed down, yet.)

 

[rschuh]

You should read the article in Bass Player w/ the analysis of Havana. I use to not like Jaco. He fell into wankdom category for me. He still does in some ways, but as my ear has been developing I realize how freakin' brilliant his compositions are. I am no where good enough to try to play like he does, but the simple fact that he was covering all those harmonys and arranging all that stuff. He always has some real interesting tensions in his music. I am sure he could have worked that stuff out in advance, but seriously look at the company he was keeping. You think Wayne Shorter would have been hanging out with someone who couldn't improvise behind his melodies or would Zawinful stand having someone step all over the chords he was comping? Find some of those punk jazz bootlegs from his nyc club days w/ Mitch Stein. They are basically jamming out. I have been working on learning continium by ear right. I have like 5 different versions on my Ipod. Each one is different. They all have a different improvised intro. At first Jaco didn't click with me, but once you get past the onslaught of harmonics and over the top grooves, the guy can really do it all.

Who the hell is Mitch Stein? If you are referring to Mike Stern, then you should NEVER comment on anything Jazz related again.

 

[rschuh]

I've never seen jaco as a jazz player, or "great" improvisor.
To my ear , most of his "improvisations" are pretty lick based,with the same licks used real often.

That does not really take much away from it all tho, I think.

Where can I hear his walking bass playing as praised in Funk 'N' Steins post.
I have heard him walk , but his walking never stood out to me.
Perhaps , and very likely , I have not heard all there is.

There is of course also a difference between "good" and "great" .

THis just shows how naive you are. Jaco was THE least "lick" bass player ever. Go buy a copy of Heavy Weather and listen to this bass solos on that record. They were some of THE most melodic solos, bass or ANY instrument, that have ever been played. You can walk down the street and sing every solo he took on that album. You obviously have heard very little and made an opinion based on too little info. I also suggest you get a copy of Joni Mitchel's Mingus and see if that is not some of THE most musical bass playing ever caught on record.

 

[rschuh]

Oh, man, here we go...

Those are heavy, heavy. And awesome. But the prevailing opinion of the guys who hung with Jaco at the time is that those solos, and many of his other standouts (Havona) were pre-composed, not improvised. IMO, it's reasonable to think that he may have played them a little differently night to night, but if Marcus and Berlin are right, Jaco had pre-composed the primary ideas in most of his solos.

Where these threads always turn sideways is that people seem to think that this fact, if true, suggests that Jaco was any less profound as a player. That's not the point to be made (IMO anyway).

The point is that the fact that Jaco's awesome solos were pre-composed versus improvised, again, if true, is a counterintuitive data point to most people.

By the way, while we're on this - what an excellent composer Jaco was!

Man,
I knew and played with Jaco and his best solos were NOT precomposed. That is 100% BS. No one should listen to a thing Berlin says about Jaco because he thinks he was in Jaco's league when in fact he was a minor leaguer compared to Jaco.

 

[butchblack]

His work on Coyote on Joni Mitchell's Shadow and light is still one of my favorite bass parts.

 

[cnltb]

THis just shows how naive you are. Jaco was THE least "lick" bass player ever. Go buy a copy of Heavy Weather and listen to this bass solos on that record. They were some of THE most melodic solos, bass or ANY instrument, that have ever been played. You can walk down the street and sing every solo he took on that album. You obviously have heard very little and made an opinion based on too little info. I also suggest you get a copy of Joni Mitchel's Mingus and see if that is not some of THE most musical bass playing ever caught on record.

I have got both and like both albums very much but will stand by The remarks I made earlier.

All I can say in response to your post is that I am glad that there are still some people around who are tactful to even those people who may have opinions that are not their own.
You may, or may not become one of them...your call.

And to say it yet again...Jaco's musicality or ability as a bassist are not the subject of this thread, neither do I voice any doubt concerning those issues in any of my posts.I'd be surprised if there were many people out there that would doubt either.

Mitch Stein is a guitarist who has worked with tania maria , alex foster etc, if I'm not mistaken...Invalid Link Removed

 

[Altitude]

Man,
I knew and played with Jaco and his best solos were NOT precomposed. That is 100% BS. No one should listen to a thing Berlin says about Jaco because he thinks he was in Jaco's league when in fact he was a minor leaguer compared to Jaco.

Although Jeff Berlin did recently submit a letter to Bass Player making the same assertions, I was primarily referring to [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] on his site. And, as I said initially, I do not claim to have known Jaco and am not holding forth this as my own opinion. Only an observation of what others have said.

Admittedly, some of what Marcus says on his site is subject to some interpretation. As contentious as this topic invariably becomes, I wish someone who knows Marcus would ask him to address this point more definitively.

Or, I suppose you have done so, given that you knew and played with Jaco. Please, tell us more about him and some of your experiences. That would be a great addition to the discussion.

 

[D.Don]

Although Jeff Berlin did recently submit a letter to Bass Player making the same assertions, I was primarily referring to [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] on his site. And, as I said initially, I do not claim to have known Jaco and am not holding forth this as my own opinion. Only an observation of what others have said.

Admittedly, some of what Marcus says on his site is subject to some interpretation. As contentious as this topic invariably becomes, I wish someone who knows Marcus would ask him to address this point more definitively.

Or, I suppose you have done so, given that you knew and played with Jaco. Please, tell us more about him and some of your experiences. That would be a great addition to the discussion.

And for the lazy ones, here's more:

Invalid Link Removed



D.Don

 

[Altitude]

And for the lazy ones, here's more:

Invalid Link Removed



D.Don

Matter of fact, that passage is even less definitive than the one on Marcus' site, and in some places suggests that Marcus was in awe of Jaco's improvisational ability [until he heard from Jaco himself that Jaco could not improvise over changes? Maybe that's what he is saying, maybe not...]. So, who knows.

I will freely admit that it seems counterintuitive that Jaco would have played as much as he did, and with all the cats he played with, and not have developed that skill.

 

[D.Don]

Matter of fact, that passage is even less definitive than the one on Marcus' site, and in some places suggests that Marcus was in awe of Jaco's improvisational ability [until he heard from Jaco himself that Jaco could not improvise over changes? Maybe that's what he is saying, maybe not...]. So, who knows.

I will freely admit that it seems counterintuitive that Jaco would have played as much as he did, and with all the cats he played with, and not have developed that skill.

"One night he said to me, "Man, you think you're good 'cause you can improvise on chord changes!" "

Sounds to me like "you have no idea what it is all about until you know every little tiny detail of what you are playing"

Though, I am not interested in arguing in the matter if Jaco could or could not improvise, I draw my own conclusions, and keep that to meself.



D.Don

 

[Funk 'N' Stein]

Some examples of Jaco in a jazz context.

USED TO BE A CHA CHA..."Jaco Pastorius" (samba...latin Jazz possibly the most relentless bass groove and solo ever recorded. Jaco had incredible stamina and it shows on this cut!!)

MOOD SWINGS..."Standards Zone" Brian Melvin Trio

IINVITATION, LIBERTY CITY, REZA, DOMINGO, THREE VIEWS OF A SECRET,..."The Birthday Concert" If anyone has any doubts that Jaco could play jazz with the best of em...then check this out. Possibly his best work.

FANNIE MAE/DRY CLEANER FROM DE MOINES..."Invitation"/"Mingus/Shadows and Light" Jazz Blues/R&B

SIGHTSEEING..."8:30"Weather Report ...Jaco walks with the best of 'em, This is pure jazz courtesy of Wayne Shorter no less

GOODBYE PORK PIE HAT..."Mingus/Shadows and light" Joni Mitchell. Did anyone ever play a BETTER ballad on bass???

Anything off "Night Passage" by Weather Report....100% Jazz in the truest sense IMO and my favorite WR album. JACO KILLS ON THIS ALBUM!!!!!

Just a few off the top of my head.......

 

[Drewskie]

MOOD SWINGS..."Standards Zone" Brian Melvin Trio

There's a tune called "Mood Swings" on a Mike Stern album as well that Jaco plays on. I'm thinking Stern wrote that one... it's an outstanding tune and well produced on the album, called "Upside Downside".

 

[jerry]

There's a tune called "Mood Swings" on a Mike Stern album as well that Jaco plays on. I'm thinking Stern wrote that one... it's an outstanding tune and well produced on the album, called "Upside Downside".

That's a killer song! There is a line in there where Jaco doubles Bob Bergs solo that sound totally spontaneous and just slays! Jaco doubters should check that song out.

 

[Funk 'N' Stein]

There's a tune called "Mood Swings" on a Mike Stern album as well that Jaco plays on. I'm thinking Stern wrote that one... it's an outstanding tune and well produced on the album, called "Upside Downside".

You know what Drewskie....You're right and I am mistaken.

"Mood Swings " is most definitely a Mike Stern tune. The Brian Melvin tune I was thinking of is called "out of the night" or something like that and is a great example of Jaco walking a jazz blues in typical AABA form followed by solos.

Please excuse me for my temporary lapse !

 

[Tommy Preston]

Of all the opinons about Jaco floating around,what he can or can't do.He still remains as THE BASS PLAYER of his era.This is my humble opinon,...and truth be told had a great deal to do with the majority of us being on this site right now.

 

[Baryonyx]

After all after 20-30 yrs playing Stella by Starlight I'm hard pressed to believe that the musician isn't falling back on his experience as to which riff works best where.

That is an interesting point, could one become so familiar with a piece of music you cannot improvise over it, but simply replay the same licks over and over. You might even fool yourself into thinking you were improvising! Unless the arrangement changes, there must be a point where you can't so anything new with it!

 

[mutedeity]

To be honest I am completely bored of talking about Jaco, Jaco's bass and Jaco's bass playing. Not that I am particularly pro or anti any of those subjects in any way. But talking about any of those topics is like watching a dog chase its own tail.

 

[Altitude]

To be honest I am completely bored of talking about Jaco, Jaco's bass and Jaco's bass playing. Not that I am particularly pro or anti any of those subjects in any way. But talking about any of those topics is like watching a dog chase its own tail.

It seems odd that you would take the time to write that post, then.

There's a tune called "Mood Swings" on a Mike Stern album as well that Jaco plays on. I'm thinking Stern wrote that one... it's an outstanding tune and well produced on the album, called "Upside Downside".

I love that tune. Jaco grooves so hard. I have two questions for fans of that tune:

1. Is it a blues form with a lot of interesting substitutions, or something else? I have always thought that it might be the most whacked-out blues form ever, so whacked out as to be barely identifiable as blues. Or not, I can't quite tell.
2. Does Jaco go to the head too early from the vamp in the beginning? At a certain point, he moves to a half-time feel, but does so only for a couple of beats. Stern is still soloing over the vamp, so Jaco quickly moves back to the double-stop tri-tone thing he had been doing before. Then, when everyone really does move to the head, Jaco plays the same half-time feel. Thoughts?