• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Jaco-Good Jazz Musician

#101
The fact that you are arguing about it, 20+ years after his passing and nearly 30 years since his seminal work says it all ... doesn't it!

The fact that many of his contemporaries are jealous or that many younger players today don't or cannot understand the contribution he made, at the time that he did, does not discount his huge impact on the bass community and EVERY single player since his emergence.

For the nay sayers, I would say that you spend too much time posting on talkbass and not enough time practicing, playing, performing, studying, working, transcribing, learning your instrument and the historical significance of the instrument and the players.

Respectfully,

Tastemybass
 
#102
tastemybass said:
For the nay sayers, I would say that you spend too much time posting on talkbass and not enough time practicing, playing, performing, studying, working, transcribing, learning your instrument and the historical significance of the instrument and the players.

Respectfully,

Tastemybass
Click to expand...

Just to clarify... are you saying that people that do not agree with you are not practicing, learning, playing and bettering themselves, and by default worse musicians?

I really hope it's not!!
 
#103
cnltb said:
Just to clarify... are you saying that people that do not agree with you are not practicing, learning, playing and bettering themselves, and by default worse musicians?

I really hope it's not!!
Click to expand...

not at all. What I am saying is that it is a total waste of time to decry the merits of Jaco ... or spend countless hours on TB when something more important can be done

TMB
 
#104
Ahh, in this case, I do agree.

I find it funny, or perhaps I should say "interesting", however what this thread seems to have become.

The question was if people think JP was a good Jazz musician. That's all it was.
A feeler for personal opinions on JP as a Jazz player.
Look at it now. ;-))

And I'll go back to work now:-)
 
#105
WJGreer said:
It seems odd that you would take the time to write that post, then.
Click to expand...

It's not odd. I'm not talking about Jaco Pastorius. I'm talking about the redundancy of the commentary on him.

To clarify, Jaco Pastorius has been dead for however many years now. Most people that have played bass for a while and looked into other people that play bass know of him at least. Either you like him or dislike him. Most people will unequivocally worship him as the greatest bass player of his time at least. Then you will have people that don't see him as being all that great. Either way it's an opinion and it's not like any of the probably hundreds of threads on talkbass sheds any new light on the matter. The question, "Was Jaco a good jazz player?" can only be answered one way. What do you think? There are plenty of people to argue both ways as thread after thread running around in circles about how good or not Jaco was proves.

By the way I understand that commentary on the subject will continue as it probably should. I am just sharing my feelings on the matter.
 
#106
jmcdan3 said:
Okay, Okay....the man can play the bass. But what are your thoughts on his improvising skills? A lot of Weather Report songs sound more like written compositions. Players like Paul Chambers and Mingus could have walked circles around him. I realize that it was two different era's and two different instruments but as far as a true jazz improvisor.... i find him to be far inferior to some others. But once again....he could play dam well and his skills should be praised like they have been.....

A side note...whats up with that missing bass? where the heck was it for twenty years??!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...

A lot of his solos were written compositions. So what? Compositional skills are just as important as improvising. :bassist:
 
#107
the man improvised every minute of his life(when he wasn't composing.
listen to wiggle waggle on the jaco big band disk it's cool analog recording from the day.
met him at the red creek in rochester ny and sampled some of his bud too.
he could fly thru subjects like his improvised solos.
 
#108
I am glad to join in this very worthwhile discussion, here's my 2-cents worth- though this has been said many times. I always thought of Jaco as a great musician who happened to play the bass. He was a terrific composer, arranger, orchestrator, pretty damned good pianist, drummer, and if I am not mistaken, I have even heard a bootleg recording of him playing a solo rendition of "Three Views of a Secret" on a Hammond B3.
I really believe that the bass superchops schtick that he indulged in (and which has sadly become a large part of his legacy for the casual listener) was the most surface part of his (very deep) game. The careers of the guys who depend on that are ephemeral because there is very little music of value to be found. It is the music Jaco composed, not the treasury of licks, that lives on, and it is that on which an assessment of his contribution should be based.
Jon Schwabe
 
#109
WJGreer said:
It seems odd that you would take the time to write that post, then.

I love that tune. Jaco grooves so hard. I have two questions for fans of that tune:

  1. Is it a blues form with a lot of interesting substitutions, or something else? I have always thought that it might be the most whacked-out blues form ever, so whacked out as to be barely identifiable as blues. Or not, I can't quite tell.
  2. Does Jaco go to the head too early from the vamp in the beginning? At a certain point, he moves to a half-time feel, but does so only for a couple of beats. Stern is still soloing over the vamp, so Jaco quickly moves back to the double-stop tri-tone thing he had been doing before. Then, when everyone really does move to the head, Jaco plays the same half-time feel. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

1. I've never seen it transcribed and don't know.

2. His playing sounds even to me up until the head at like 1:25. The vamp is just the rhythmic tritone thing he does with a sort of filler groove between tritones... it sounds very even to me.
 
#112
It's true, people get defensive when anyone tries to criticise Jaco. However, it would be unfair not to recognize his superior sense of harmony and melody. Not to mention his talent as a composer. Anyone who reaches those levels is to be regarded as a great Musician, period...labels come second. With regard to him being a 'not-so-great jazz player'..well again it depends from your definition of jazz..a style which, ab originem, is the synonym of freedom.
Check his solo on 'Port of Entry', his walking lines on 'Rockin' in Rythm' or 'Night Passage', his countermelodies on 'Dream Clock'...and I am quoting only ONE album!!!
Jaco is Music, God bless his Soul.
 
#113
Weather Report is and was a great example of compositional jazz that to me was more Ellington-like than free jazz or bop in it's form. Jaco privided great compositional moments and improvisational moments live. One of Jaco's greatest abilities was to be able to shift and change the dynamic of any song by use of color chords, rhythms and dynamics. He could change everything about a song or a performance with his musicality.

If you question his ability to sol o over chord changes - listen again to Donna Lee - remember he's the only melodic or harmonic component on that recording. And what he did for Joni Mitchell, to me might be his most enduring gift to pop music. Dry Cleaner from DeMoine's walking bass line, harmonics, chord substitutions and rhythmic variations are a clinic -- especially the live version.

Comparing a contemporary, like a Jeff Berlin, I would say that with twenty more years of study and life, Mr. Berlin has cemented his advanced solo and harmonic skills. In this respect he compares with geniuses like Hancock, Brecker and Metheny. But to my ear, Berlin often sounds mechanical and souless.

These are traits that no one would ever excuse Jaco of having -- ever. Exhibit A - Berlin's reworking of Clapton's Tears in Heaven. Great playing over a special song. Except that it was without feeling or regard to the meaning of the song, and to me was a great example of overplaying. Somewhere Scott Thunes was ramming his head against the wall.

Now compare Victor Wooten's version of Norwegian Wood. Just as technically imposing, but with alot more soul and in better context to the original.

Both of these owe everything to Portrait of Tracy.
 
#114
there are 2 kinds of bass players in the world

Jaco and then you

I'm sure in 500 years people will be bringing up "your work" to analyze, just as much as Jaco's....

and by "your work" thats the collective of all bass players that are not Jaco

500 years... we meet back here to discuss
now end this ridiculous thread
 
#116
lambro said:
there are 2 kinds of bass players in the world

Jaco and then you

I'm sure in 500 years people will be bringing up "your work" to analyze, just as much as Jaco's....

and by "your work" thats the collective of all bass players that are not Jaco

500 years... we meet back here to discuss
now end this ridiculous thread
Click to expand...

???...Im sorry, but this has got to be the most ridiculous post in this entire thread.

If discussing Jaco bores you, then dont participate. If you choose to participate, contribute to the discussion in a constructive manner.
 
#118
Lincoln said:
If you question his ability to solo over chord changes - listen again to Donna Lee - remember he's the only melodic or harmonic component on that recording.
Click to expand...
No doubt. The question is whether they rolled the tape and he laid that down - based on spur-of-the-precise-moment combinations of notes and licks, or whether he had generally planned what he would play beforehand. I agree with the other posters who have said that even the great improvisers have licks they typically use, but we can probably all recognize a line that you cross where you go from (using licks in your arsenal over a set of changes) to (playing a solo you wrote or planned in advance). I do not know where Donna Lee, or many of Jaco's well-regarded solos sit versus that line, and that answer seems to be the point of controversy about Jaco's improv skills.

Lincoln said:
Exhibit A - Berlin's reworking of Clapton's Tears in Heaven. Great playing over a special song. Except that it was without feeling or regard to the meaning of the song, and to me was a great example of overplaying.
Click to expand...
+1. That one does not ring my bell either. I suppose that Berlin's playing sounds a little like his talking - full of advice, opinion, and unsolicited assertion.
 
#119
There are really two questions, one unresolvable, that will keep this going ad nauseum. At the base of the divisiveness is actually the question of "What is Jazz." This is unfortunately a question that has no answer.

There are some people who truly believe this means playing Bop tunes in a Bop configuration with the standard Head, solo rotation, re-state Head format. I guess these are "jazzbos" to some. But there honestly are folks convinced that is the real deal.

Of course OC had a completely different take.

And then, I'm not sure too many performing groups have fully digested where Miles was headed when he went out.

Ultimately, IMO, Jazz is a state of mind in a talented musician. And, Jaco had it.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back