Jaco

[JimK]

To an extent, I kinda agree with Bruce on this one

Thanks for the early warning.

I don't know when it happened but one day it just clicked, it wasn't overplaying, it was just bloody brilliant. I think, like Bruce said, where there are lessons to be learned, sometimes its worth persevering past the initial reaction to find those lessons.

That's the point I was badly making with Ravi's analogy with the 12-year Math wiz.
(Somehow Ravi went off on 'boring' tangent).
Some things take work & effort...be it Math or listening. FME, listening is a skill that requires constant tweaking; if not, I would still be enjoying Nursery Rhymes.

 

[JimK]

Know why Liberace had such a successful career? Because people liked him. There were others who didn't.

See above.

 

[mbeall]

Alright, I guess I'm mostly a lurker here in these forums but I have to chime in on this one.

Rav. every song has a story to tell but we as listeners have to be equipped to understand the language just like reading a book. I've been trying to read Finnegan's Wake for years and I still don't know what the hell Joyce is talking about most of the time. I can read all the words but the greater meaning eludes me, but I'm not going to say Joyce's writing sucks..... because I don't get it yet.
Indian tabla/scitar music is similar for me musically, I love the rhythmic interplay but my ears don't comprehend most of the harmonic content, therfore much of the tension and release (key factor in what makes music bad ass IMO) is completely lost on me so all of it just sounds constantly weird, but I'm not going to say it sucks.
You said that you could appreciate what Jaco did technically but I have to question what you mean by technically. I'm guessing that you recognize that he is playing some "difficult stuff" at times on that record.
If you were raised on MTV and pop radio like I was then I'm willing to make a big assumption and bet that your ears are not yet equipped to "get" what's going on it that record. It took me years before I could listen to Weather Report or Jaco and dig it for what's really happening in there, not to mention a host of other jazz recordings. I love AC/DC and all kinds of rock and roll too but to put it in perspective with a literary metaphor, AC/DC is Hardy Boys next to Jaco's Hamlet. I think someone would be well within thier rights to say that Hamlet "sucked" but I don't think that opinion would hold much weight if they couldn't really understand what the characters are saying to each other.

Sorry if I come off sounding harsh. That's not the intent. Just trying to put some perspective to the objection of the word "sucks" as applied to Jaco's music.

Mike

 

[battousai]

I get the feeling most non-jazz fans think that the only reason jazz (or fusion to be more specific) fans listen to the music is for technical virtuosity. That may be the case for some, but for me I listen to it for the music (along with many other genres) and how it makes me feel. I listen to Jaco, Metheny, Bela Fleck, Matt Garrison, Return to Forever because I like the music, period. An artist's technique is lower on the priority list for me than the music itself.

But on the subject of Jaco I think enjoy listening to certain songs more than others. For example, I don't enjoy listening to "Crisis." But overall I think Jaco's music will stand the test of time more than his technique.

 

[shatner]

I don't know how anyone that likes Primus and Les Claypool can seriously say Jaco sucks because he is too avant garde.

I don't hear anything in Jaco's music that is even slightly off the wall. For the record, I am equally into Cannibal Corpse, Suzanne Vega, Frank Zappa and Iannis Xenakis so I suppose my ears are a little different but I do think there is a hell of a lot of commercial music (not just jazz) that is a lot harder on the hearing than Jaco.

Also, Jaco is not even that technically proficient by modern standards. Wooten and Bona. Now they are pretty good technicians.

All this technique thing is silly. There are a million and one reasons people love certain pieces of music. The reason why you like something should not matter. I love listening to some things because they are weird, others because they are funny, others because they display good chops, others because they just sound pleasant to me. What business is it of anybody why you are turned on by anything if it doesn't hurt anybody. For this reason, opinions on musical validity based on emotion are pretty stupid.

The 'craft' of musical composition is a different thing altogether.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well, let's hope you guys learn him some taste.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Exactly - it's Talkbass, you can say shut up about it - but then there would be no forum!!

I don't see that most people who have replied are upset - they are just saying that the original poster is missing out on something good by dismmissing Jaco on a (self-admitted) cursory listening!

So - most people have been suggesting what Jaco tracks or abums to listen to, that might be easier to get into.

This is a bass site and Jaco's music has a lot to teach bass players about what you can do,what's possible.... I think people are just pointing this out, as a way of helping others not to miss out on a great resource for becoming better bass players.

I'm not upset that the original poster misses out- but if I can help somebody else appreciate Jaco's music and not be put off by one negative response - then I will - no matter what you say!!

I still say it's sad... no matter what you say!!

 

[Brad Johnson]

To an extent, I kinda agree with Bruce on this one When I first heard about Jaco and then bought a CD I was definately like "whats all the fuss about?" - I wasn't into jazz at all, but I knew that so many people could not be wrong. So I stuck with it and would come back and listen to the Jaco CD maybe once or twice a month just to see if something would leap out at me. I don't know when it happened but one day it just clicked, it wasn't overplaying, it was just bloody brilliant. I think, like Bruce said, where there are lessons to be learned, sometimes its worth persevering past the initial reaction to find those lessons.

By that logic we have the right president... so many people could not be wrong.

And trust me, with some artists, no amount of listening can change the fact that they just sound like too many notes. I can easily see Jaco striking some people that way. Can you? If so, why should they persevere?

 

[JimK]

And trust me, with some artists, no amount of listening can change the fact that they just sound like too many notes. I can easily see Jaco striking some people that way.

"If 'less' is more, then just think how much more 'more' will be".
(Wish I had said that!)

Seriously, I know you know there's a big difference between 'busy' & 'overplaying'.
Jamerson is another busy bee.
I just thought of that scene in Amadeus-
The king tells Mozart that there's "too many notes"(Salieri about creamed in his drawers when he heard that).
Wulfie disagrees, "...there's just enough notes; no more, no less than what was required".
(Or sumthin like that).

Anyway, I get your point, Brad...just 'talkin' bass'.

 

[JimK]

But on the subject of Jaco I think enjoy listening to certain songs more than others. For example, I don't enjoy listening to "Crisis."

"Crisis" is an important piece...it is almost a look into what schizophrenia 'sounds' like.
Especially eerie considering Jaco's demons. According to Milkowski's book, the execs at Sony were none too pleased with an avant piece such as "Crisis" kickin' off the Word Of Mouth album.

But overall I think Jaco's music will stand the test of time more than his technique.

Agreed; "Three Views Of A Secret", "Havona", "Domingo", etc will stand the test of time more so than maybe something like "Teen Town".

 

[Marlat]

By that logic we have the right president... so many people could not be wrong.

And trust me, with some artists, no amount of listening can change the fact that they just sound like too many notes. I can easily see Jaco striking some people that way. Can you? If so, why should they persevere?

See thats the beauty of music Brad, its not based in logic

 

[jerry]

"Crisis" is an important piece...it is almost a look into what schizophrenia 'sounds' like.
Especially eerie considering Jaco's demons. According to Milkowski's book, the execs at Sony were none too pleased with an avant piece such as "Crisis" kickin' off the Word Of Mouth album.
.

+1....I think Crisis will be studied a lot in the future! It's one of my favorite Jaco songs, because it does give you a look into Jaco's soul at that time.

 

[caesarbass]

People forget to listen to the feel of Jaco's playing. He was "the pocket" regardless of all the notes he did or didn't play. Too bad there are so many bad recordings out there of Jaco, but let's be honest...even on our good days, where we think we're sounding and playing as good as we possibly can, none of us sounded as good as Jaco did on one of his "bad" days.

 

[Brad Johnson]

See thats the beauty of music Brad, its not based in logic

Since when?

 

[Marlat]

Since when?

Since I said so, didnt you get the memo?

 

[Brad Johnson]

"If 'less' is more, then just think how much more 'more' will be".
(Wish I had said that!)

Seriously, I know you know there's a big difference between 'busy' & 'overplaying'.

Actually I do know the actual difference, while a lot of people don't.

The difference is the listener.

Jamerson is another busy bee.
I just thought of that scene in Amadeus-
The king tells Mozart that there's "too many notes"(Salieri about creamed in his drawers when he heard that).
Wulfie disagrees, "...there's just enough notes; no more, no less than what was required".
(Or sumthin like that).

Anyway, I get your point, Brad...just 'talkin' bass'.

This ties into what I've been getting at. The king thought that there were too many notes... and to him there were. So he was right. OTOH Mozart thought there were just enough... and to him, he was right.

They're both right. That's the beauty of being able to have an opinion. Check this out from earlier in the thread:

"If you opinion is different then 99.9% of the bass players out there does it mean you are wrong? Probably".


Huh? The idea that Jaco is almost universally appreciated by bassists is one heck of a humongous stretch... in my opinion of course.

"You could have kept your trap shut or made a post saying "Hey I don't really get Jaco's music. It doesn't do it for me." but instead you tried to get a rise out of people here by saying that he sucks- and while that is your opinion you are bashing on one of the icons of bass playing that almost every bass player today loves".

Again, that's going to the other extreme. Lots of bass players couldn't give a crap about Jazz or Jaco or Weather Report and as usual some people seem to want to extend their love of those things to others... who have every right not to be impressed. Should almost every bass player be as fascinated with Michael Manring, Stu Hamm, Jeff Berlin, Anthony Jackson, Duck Dunn, Rocco, Jamerson, ad nauseum? No, because while they're all accomplished players, they all have they're own vibe and everyone is not going to dig the same vibe from every player.

So why should Jaco be any different? We somehow decide to suspend reality when this subject comes up. What was the enormous range of material he supposedly covered? The old joke about the musician who played both kinds of music, Country and Western comes to mind. Jaco was a Jazz player with serious R&B roots. Let's toss "Chromatic Fantasy" into the mix to add another genre. Then what?

This is by no means meant to be disrespectful of Jaco, I've dug him for a looong time... but that doesn't cloud my mind to the point that I think everyone should too. And if they didn't, that I'd try to make them try harder to do so

 

[Brad Johnson]

Since I said so, didnt you get the memo?

I can certainly see the place illogic holds in music in this thread.

 

[Brad Johnson]

People forget to listen to the feel of Jaco's playing. He was "the pocket" regardless of all the notes he did or didn't play. Too bad there are so many bad recordings out there of Jaco, but let's be honest...even on our good days, where we think we're sounding and playing as good as we possibly can, none of us sounded as good as Jaco did on one of his "bad" days.

You honestly believe that?*



Then it's true... after all, it's your opinion.


Now, in the tradition of this thread, I'll suggest several people you should listen to to hopefully get you to see the error in your ways.


Nah. It's an easy trap to fall into.




*Imagines Jaco holding down the bass chair in my Mudvayne tribute band...

 

[slugworth]

You honestly believe that?*



Then it's true... after all, it's your opinion.


Now, in the tradition of this thread, I'll suggest several people you should listen to to hopefully get you to see the error in your ways.


Nah. It's an easy trap to fall into.




*Imagines Jaco holding down the bass chair in my Mudvayne tribute band...

>>> I dunno...I saw Jaco on a really bad day, the day
Cosby pulled the plug on him at Playboy Jazz. That was
after he sneered at me and muttered an expletive as he
walked away..He was obviously gakked out of his mind that
day..I was hurt and saddened..This was the great Jaco Pastorius? My hero? I was beside myself that day. It was weird..I still get a strange feeling up my spine when I remember the whole big, bad, ugly scene..Do I still respect
Jaco? You bet your ass I do..He will always remain (and I can't recall who said this) "The Gallileo of Bass", but alas,
the bass solar system is a whole lot different now than it
was 20 or 30 years ago, so many more things have been
discovered...I still respect what he accomplished, but try
to keep him in the proper perspective as one of the many
players in the pantheon of great bassists..

Slug

 

[metalguy2]

Got through reading the third page of replies. ADD kicked in!! Well not that I am replying.
Jaco, while not getting me into playing the bass. He totally changed the way I looked at the instrument. The way I had my outlook and goals set. He pretty much changed my life musically.I listen to his music as much as I listen to my Dillinger Escape Plan, and Cannibal Corpse cd's.

Jaco is also the one who opened me up to jazz. And how awesome it is. I would of never payed attention to things like Coltrane or Miles before Jaco.

And don't forget that your on a website called TalkBass. Nobody here wants to see 'Jaco' and 'sucks' in the same sentence. Trust me. It is blesphemy.