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Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

#302
I wonder if the "chops vs groove" thing is just a familiar pattern related to how young people learn. I'm sure that I was interested in chops before I really began to learn the groove of jazz. My kids love shredding. Even outside of music. In my main career, I learned to solve bewilderingly complex problems long before I could design things that were simple and practical.

I've told my kids: "That sounds great. Now I'll bet you can't play the same thing slow."
 
#304
After reading all 16 pages (whew) I'll post what I have learned about Classical vs Jazz vs Metal.

Classical: Follow the rules
Jazz: You have to learn the rules before you can break the rules
Metal: rules?
:D

I like most forms of music, except Opera, some jazz and hiphop/rap (I'm old, what can I say)
As far as overrated styles of music, some are, some are not. It's all a matter of personal taste and opinion.
 
#306
Mike Arnopol said:
thanks, man
One other thing. I was trained as a classical player. After high school I was studying in Europe. I had a teacher who wouldn't let me even try to play a piece at tempo. He would make me play the entire piece at a snail's pace until I could play it perfectly at that pace. Funny thing is---after I could nail it at a ridiculously slow pace the first time at temp I could play it near perfectly. It's all about muscle memory. Speed doesn't dictate how your muscles memorize. Perfect execution is. If you play it accurately slowly you'd be surprised at how easy it is playing at tempo. Young players tend to learn difficult pieces (no matter what genre) at tempo. They kindof learn it. They usually make the same small mistakes at the same places. That's because that's how their muscles learned them. The great Alain Caron as I've heard only practices at a slow tempo. And his velocity chops are insane!
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Phenomenal bass playing. I just listened to almost all the Patricia Barber youtube clips.
 
#307
Mike Arnopol said:
thanks, man
One other thing. I was trained as a classical player. After high school I was studying in Europe. I had a teacher who wouldn't let me even try to play a piece at tempo. He would make me play the entire piece at a snail's pace until I could play it perfectly at that pace. Funny thing is---after I could nail it at a ridiculously slow pace the first time at temp I could play it near perfectly. It's all about muscle memory. Speed doesn't dictate how your muscles memorize. Perfect execution is. If you play it accurately slowly you'd be surprised at how easy it is playing at tempo. Young players tend to learn difficult pieces (no matter what genre) at tempo. They kindof learn it. They usually make the same small mistakes at the same places. That's because that's how their muscles learned them. The great Alain Caron as I've heard only practices at a slow tempo. And his velocity chops are insane!
Click to expand...

genius, pure genius.

i am going to show my son all your posts in this thread when he wakes up. thank you for laying it out so cogently and beautifully.

you are a lucky man to have had such wise teachers, but obviously their wisdom rubbed off on you.

davesignatureII-1.png
 
#309
Man---I'm really embarrassed at that clip!
Just have to say---
That was one of the first gigs on a tour. I admit it---I'm a lazy mofo. My regular double bass is nearly full size. It has a 42" string length and is an e flat neck. My EUB (I am proud of my EUB sound) is a 41" length and a d neck. I hadn't played it for a while before that tour. That was one of the first gigs. Be careful---you never know when you'll be on tv. Let's just say that I've had better intonation moments. I guess it's ok but every time I hear that I feel like I thought I was playing microtonal music! I just hear a lot of b flat ouch! moments!!!
After I saw that I made sure to practice my EUB before going on tour!

Also---I HATE the jazz is great metals sucks argument. Great music is great music. I'm a real dummy as far as metal. The guitarist and drummer in Patty's band were total metalheads when they were younger. I always felt like an old fart when they were talking about the great metal bands. I was at Bonaroo and made sure to see Tool. What genre are they considered? Anyhoo--they played their butts off and I really dug it.I really respected their musicianship even if it's not my first choice to listen to at romantic moments. I'd love to play in a band like that! If you can play you can play. Just considering the intellectual prowess of "Hooker with a P---------------"
 
#310
ggunn said:
I do not require your assistance to perceive what is listenable and what is not from my perspective.
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question is, on this forum, what is the worth of your perspective? To this forum, to yourself, to anyone else?

Perspectives are mostly preferential, moreso than observation.

Certainly there have been young musicians who have contributed much to the world of music (some, like Sarah Jarosz (Home | Sarah Jarosz) are indeed stunning), but to make the blanket statement that the work of the young is all somehow better from some sort of objective perspective is a sweeping generalization that I simply do not agree with.
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I made a simple point. Who currently has negatively reviewed the aforementioned composers? There is a reason that classical composers are far more respected, and the list of names can go seemingly forever, meanwhile there are a mere handful of jazz musicians (note that I use musicians over composers) that people don't find objectifiable. Its because the music is able to be played by various ensembles and groups of musicians, not simply by the songwriter and the musicians that played on the recordings, or according to special provision made by the writer.
 
#311
Ayce said:
Classical: Follow the rules
Jazz: You have to learn the rules before you can break the rules
Metal: rules?
:D
Click to expand...

Rules may be one of the most misunderstood aspects of music. Rather than being taught you have to do this or you can't do that we should be taught "the conventions for this genre are xxxx." Every genre has it's conventions (or rules). In general, if you want to write progressive rock, you don't use a I, IV, V progression; If you want to write Rockabilly, you don't use a lot of complex chords and changes.

There really is no right or wrong in writing music.
 
#312
scorpionldr said:
There is a reason that classical composers are far more respected, and the list of names can go seemingly forever, meanwhile there are a mere handful of jazz musicians (note that I use musicians over composers) that people don't find objectifiable.
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This statement is ridiculous.
 
#313
Here's what I was looking for! I couldn't find a video clip, but this is from Spinal [email protected]
"
In the '70s, the band had to temporarliy change its name to Anthem and The Cadburys due to legal troubles with its record label. In 1982, Nigel quit the band and Spinal Tap was forced to call themselves Spinal Tap Mark II. Nigel quitting allowed them to explore freeform jazz. Nigel had long prevented the band from experimenting with jazz because a) jazz guitarists don't play loud b) he believed jazz was "just a series of mistakes without the 'oops.'"."
 
#314
scorpionldr said:
I made a simple point. Who currently has negatively reviewed the aforementioned composers? There is a reason that classical composers are far more respected, and the list of names can go seemingly forever, meanwhile there are a mere handful of jazz musicians (note that I use musicians over composers) that people don't find objectifiable. Its because the music is able to be played by various ensembles and groups of musicians, not simply by the songwriter and the musicians that played on the recordings, or according to special provision made by the writer.
Click to expand...

Que? - YouTube
 
#315
Tupac said:
It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz. It's a lot more difficult and complex than pop and rock, but that's about it. Compared to the prog genres for example, it's about the same... but I don't know about Tech Death. Sure they play in 6/4, swing, and 7th chords, but it's nothing outstanding I think. They do not deserve all the attention they get. Now, let me introduce you to some very complex music:


Blotted Science- Synaptic Plasticity
This is a very interesting one. The time signature changes just about every measure.

Cannibal Corpse- Frantic Disembowelment
Their left hands tell the whole story.

Symphony X-Sea of Lies
More chop hell, as well as some playing with time signatures. I believe the beginning is in 5/4, but there's many breaks with odd things going on, I can never tell.


So, those are just a couple examples. I could have also have posted some Rush or Dream Theater song that anyone would have a field day with, but everyone's already heard those. Don't get me wrong though, jazz musicians are great, but I don't think it's the most difficult genre.
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The difference is that jazz is mainly IMPROVISATIONAL those arrangements are not.


Showing videos of guys with sloppy left hand technique doesn't help your case either.
 
#316
A lot of people talk about shredding and speed as wankery. How is it different from free form jazz, or a minute and a half of one guy playing notes while the rest of the band sits in anticipation for a good spot to jumpt in, regardless of speed at which it is played?
 
#318
scorpionldr said:
I made a simple point. Who currently has negatively reviewed the aforementioned composers? There is a reason that classical composers are far more respected, and the list of names can go seemingly forever, meanwhile there are a mere handful of jazz musicians (note that I use musicians over composers) that people don't find objectifiable.
Click to expand...

That's a neat comment. Who played first chair in a given Bach or Mozart composition?
 
#319
Jazz is just about and should not be about chops it's about "feel"
it's about a high level of improvisation on the fly that uses communication with other musicians during the playing of the piece, it's about locking in with a drummer while still grabbing a piece of the melody in your bass line. And it's most likely about more than someone like myself would know about. That is where the great jazz musicians get the respect from the music world that they deserve, if anything chops is the last thing it's about. Anyone with the time can woodshed and have great chops but that does not make you a great musician.
 
#320
scorpionldr said:
question is, on this forum, what is the worth of your perspective? To this forum, to yourself, to anyone else?
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My only response to that is "huh?" Is that supposed to mean something?

scorpionldr said:
Perspectives are mostly preferential, moreso than observation.
Click to expand...

Perspective and observation are one and the same when it comes to music. Listenability is in the ear of the beholder; it's ALL subjective.
 

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