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Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

T

Tupac

May 5, 2011
2,644
366
#1
It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz. It's a lot more difficult and complex than pop and rock, but that's about it. Compared to the prog genres for example, it's about the same... but I don't know about Tech Death. Sure they play in 6/4, swing, and 7th chords, but it's nothing outstanding I think. They do not deserve all the attention they get. Now, let me introduce you to some very complex music:


Blotted Science- Synaptic Plasticity
This is a very interesting one. The time signature changes just about every measure.

Cannibal Corpse- Frantic Disembowelment
Their left hands tell the whole story.

Symphony X-Sea of Lies
More chop hell, as well as some playing with time signatures. I believe the beginning is in 5/4, but there's many breaks with odd things going on, I can never tell.


So, those are just a couple examples. I could have also have posted some Rush or Dream Theater song that anyone would have a field day with, but everyone's already heard those. Don't get me wrong though, jazz musicians are great, but I don't think it's the most difficult genre.
 
#5
charlie monroe said:
Symphony X really brings it. I hadn't heard of them before, thanks for the head's up!

Having said that, lots of jazz guys are not overrated. Some might be, but for the most part they earn their reps.
Click to expand...
Symphony X are really great aren't they? One of my favorites. Their guitarist does some pretty incredible stuff. And yes, jazz musicians are great don't get me wrong, but I just think there's more difficult stuff out there.
 
#6
I want to say something snarky and intelligent... but I got nothing. Ah well. But it's clear that you haven't listened to enough jazz if that's your summation of it. Technical difficulty and complexity is only one aspect of music.

Symphony X is badass though. Check out Frost* if you haven't already.

Things start to get good around the 1 minute mark.
 
#8
My cover band brought in a sub drummer, who's in the jazz program at UT, for a gig we were doing. He was a great guy and he had killer chops, but my lord that boy did not know how to rawk! Bulls on Parade got turned into a lounge song because of his playing :p
 
#9
I agree, death metal has some of the best technical bass lines ive heard, I'm actually going to see cannibal corpse for the first time live tomorrow. Also, brain drill has a lot of sweet bass tech as well. Though its kinda hard to listen to for some people Evan Brewer and Andy Saxton are also great bassist I admire, along with Jean Baudin. Evan brewer plays in a technical death metal band called the faceless, but he just recently joined. Sorry to rant, I'm bored at work. Haha
 
#10
I still don't see why technical difficulty and playing at the speed of light are considered to be so important or superior. That's not what I look for when I hear music, and I'm sure most people out there (non musicians) aren't exactly looking for a "song that changes time signatures every measure".

In my book, if you can't groove or dance to it, it's not my thing. What good is music if you can't let yourself loose in it? Leave the complexity and the over-thinking to mathematicians.
 
#11
To elaborate on my earlier post, jazz musicians aren't so widely renowned simply because they can play well, it's because they are versatile. You could put many well versed jazz musicians into a wide range of musical situations and they would own it, no questions asked. I'm not so ignorant as to say that there aren't metal musicians out there who couldn't do the same thing but how many have you seen occupy various positions in the music industry? From commercial jingles, to movie scores you see musicians who either started or had a lot of exposure to jazz doing A LOT. That's why it's so coveted. Again, it's not a matter of sheer ability but musical knowledge and it's application to other genres and situations.

And just to be clear, I don't hate metal (combined, it's one of the largest playlists of music that I own), I just want you and other folks to be clear on why some people look at jazz musicians as being so great. Also, 'Jazz' is a VERY wide genre (just like any other). Look around and you may find more that you enjoy.

Tetsuo Sakurai Brain Storm - YouTube
 
#12
carlthegroover said:
I still don't see why technical difficulty and playing at the speed of light are considered to be so important or superior. That's not what I look for when I hear music, and I'm sure most people out there (non musicians) aren't exactly looking for a "song that changes time signatures every measure".

In my book, if you can't groove or dance to it, it's not my thing. What good is music if you can't let yourself loose in it? Leave the complexity and the over-thinking to mathematicians.
Click to expand...

There is room for both, and then some!
I dont always listen to music because I want to dance,
and I dont always listen because I want to cry.
Sometimes I want music to make me think,
others I want it to teach me what its like to die.
There are times I want it to wake me up,
and times I want it to take me away.
Often times I listen while getting ****ed up,
and somtimes only it can ease my pain.
 
#13
Oh God. You can't say 'jazz players are over rated'. There are a lot of jazz musicians, some are fantastic, some aren't. But the art form of jazz music requires years and years of training to get your foot in the door. For one thing, it's truly technically challenging. There's so much more to it than 7th chords. For another thing, you HAVE to be able to improvise. The whole thing is based on improvisation, and you have to be able to do it well, not just running scales like so many metal guitarists do, but creating something expressive that adheres to the harmony and breaks the harmony in the right places, that both supports and challenges the rhythm, hip sounds like substitutions and inversions. It's been at the centre of many artistic and social revolutions. Most often they aren't 'well respected because they're jazz musicians', but because they're incredible artists who play jazz. It's heartbreaking to see so many people not understand their country's most important contribution to the art world.

All this praise of metal bands based on how many time signatures they change and how fast it is is juvenile. Sure that's a difficult thing, but when people try to talk up their favourite metal bands those are the stock responses.
 
#17
For the record, I am biased. I personally can't stand metal because it says nothing to me. It all just sounds like teenage angst to the extreme. That's not to say there's no merit in anger in music, but I can find it in Charles Mingus to name one. People think of jazz as back ground music at posh restaurants. That's the scene that killed jazz and turned it into a commodity. I listen to a wide range of music, but jazz to me is the pinnacle. But then again, I grew up on 'Trane and Miles Davis etc. It's not generational either, I'm 21.
 
#18
carlthegroover said:
I still don't see why technical difficulty and playing at the speed of light are considered to be so important or superior. That's not what I look for when I hear music, and I'm sure most people out there (non musicians) aren't exactly looking for a "song that changes time signatures every measure".

In my book, if you can't groove or dance to it, it's not my thing. What good is music if you can't let yourself loose in it? Leave the complexity and the over-thinking to mathematicians.
Click to expand...
To simply put it: Why not? If you want to "leave over-thinking to the mathematicians" then you must not be willing to push your playing to the limit. I mean, it's not something I'd like to listen to all the time, but I think it's inspiring and fun to go as far as human limits will allow. And if we're going by your scale, I could think of a lot more bands are better to dance to than jazz.

On second thought... I like MatticusMania's response better.

Kwesi said:
To elaborate on my earlier post, jazz musicians aren't so widely renowned simply because they can play well, it's because they are versatile. You could put many well versed jazz musicians into a wide range of musical situations and they would own it, no questions asked. I'm not so ignorant as to say that there aren't metal musicians out there who couldn't do the same thing but how many have you seen occupy various positions in the music industry? From commercial jingles, to movie scores you see musicians who either started or had a lot of exposure to jazz doing A LOT. That's why it's so coveted. Again, it's not a matter of sheer ability but musical knowledge and it's application to other genres and situations.

And just to be clear, I don't hate metal (combined, it's one of the largest playlists of music that I own), I just want you and other folks to be clear on why some people look at jazz musicians as being so great. Also, 'Jazz' is a VERY wide genre (just like any other). Look around and you may find more that you enjoy.

Tetsuo Sakurai Brain Storm - YouTube
Click to expand...
That's a good point actually, I hadn't considered that. You're certainly right about their versatility. But I also think that the reason why metal musicians don't do that is that they're simply not interested. I can't picture Alex Webster doing a commercial jingle, haha. And that video is crazy. (in the good way)
 
#20
wilberthenry said:
The difficult=good mindset is one I never have ascribed to, but I don't think jazz players are overrated. Underpaid maybe, but not overrated.
Click to expand...
I agree, but maybe it's just because I can't play that much difficult stuff. :p

Seriously, quit worrying about who is over- or under- rated and get on with it. As Uncle Frank told us, "Shut up an' play yer guitar." Or bass. Or whatever.
 

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