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Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

#21
You guys mention difficult music to play, I like jazz and metal, mainly because they aren't standard pop songs....

Ever heard of animals as leaders, probably not because they don't have a bassist, but look them up if you want crazy difficult music and on the other side of the spectrum is say Renaud Garcia Fons

Who said something along the lines of "There are two kinds of music good and bad"

Maybe a little bit in the middle, only a little
 
#27
IMO, the difference is not just about being technical and "complex" -- it's about having a deep understanding of tradition and historical perspective and what's been done in the music. It's impossible to play jazz convincingly without all of those things, along with being able to play your instrument. The technique is a means to a level of expression that can communicate those things.

The OP stuff is sort of cool musically, but it just sounds like aggression and gymnastics with zero subtlety -- pretty boring when you get down to it, because it's just show-offy without seeming to have much of a story to tell other than "check out my awesome riffs".

Listen to Hank Jones and Charlie Haden, for example -- which you wouldn't call anything but jazz -- and so much of it sounds incredibly simple, but it has a depth that comes from decades of musical experience and life experience.

On second thought, don't listen to it -- it would bore the crap out of you.

Keep playing/thinking.
 
#28
ugly_bassplayer said:
IMO your not an expert on Bass-ing either.
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+1
'Pac is certainly makin a name for himself

Slammyapple said:
IMO, the difference is not just about being technical and "complex" -- it's about having a deep understanding of tradition and historical perspective and what's been done in the music. It's impossible to play jazz convincingly without all of those things, along with being able to play your instrument. The technique is a means to a level of expression that can communicate those things.

The OP stuff is sort of cool musically, but it just sounds like aggression and gymnastics with zero subtlety -- pretty boring when you get down to it, because it's just show-offy without seeming to have much of a story to tell other than "check out my awesome riffs".

Listen to Hank Jones and Charlie Haden, for example -- which you wouldn't call anything but jazz -- and so much of it sounds incredibly simple, but it has a depth that comes from decades of musical experience and life experience.

On second thought, don't listen to it -- it would bore the crap out of you.

Keep playing/thinking.
Click to expand...

+1 Well said.
 
#33
Steve Morse, Sharon Isbin and Jimmy Raney are all great guitarists. They all have the ability to get what is in their "internal ear" (imagination, whatever you want to call it) out into the air so the rest of us can hear it without the instrument being any kind of impediment. But they all sound different, they all hear differet things, they each are involved in the music they are involved in for different reasons. What was important in music to Jimmy Raney wasn't important to Steve Morse and vice versa.
THERE IS NO MUSICAL HIERARCHY. Within each style of music that exists there are people who can touch that universal moment of truth and beauty. And there are many many many people within each style that have no ****ing clue.
 
#34
Man.... look:

When it comes to music, there are only two kinds: Good and bad.

Lumping one kind of music (and the musicians that play it) as being "good" or "bad" is just the most pointless kind of bickering that there is.

I like Jazz. I like Prog Rock. I like Metal. I like music.

There is a lot more in common between the frost example you posted above and someone like Tigran Hamasyan than there are differences. I love Alex Webster AND Ray Brown and I would never bring either of them down because there is a skill set and proficiency that is required in tone, feel and technique that is gained through years of experience in the kind of situations I can only hope to find myself in, musically.

I promise you that, if you put Hiromi Uehara and Jordan Rudess in a room together with two keyboards, they would compare notes, talk about music, and then play some awesome music. It would be interesting, beautiful, and i'd rather listen to that then get caught up in pointless bickering.

BTW, before you dismiss all jazz, one of my favorite pianists is Tigran Hamasyan. If you haven't heard him before, and you like heavy time signature stuff (as I do), check this out:

Tigran Hamasyan - Red Hail - Red Hail - YouTube

Here is some greg Howe for you for a bit of jazz technicality (Check out alan Holdworth/frank gambale as well):

Greg Howe-Extraction - YouTube

And one of the most frightening solos I've ever heard is Hiromi's solo on "Return of the Kung-fu World Champion". I couldn't find the recorded cd version on youtube, but, if you have the time and the chance, check it out. I don't know how much harder you could make it, technically.
 
#35
I love Rock and I love Jazz, but IMO jazz players do *generally* wipe the floor with the rock guys. Yes, of course, their are exceptions, but jazz musicians are usually far better in their understanding of their instruments than your standard rock 'dude'. The other thing is that that improvisation in jazz is what really sets it apart. For example, the language that a Miles Davis speaks thru his trumpet cannot be paralleled by some rock guitar virtuoso, IMVHO, YMMV etc.
 
#36
Oh no - not this subject

All I can say is that I have studied 44 yrs now and am only a marginal jazz player

technical complexity for it's own sake isn't music - it's wanking no matter the style

great jazzers can take you on a journey & tell a story without leaving the 'form' or killing the tune

I recently tried to bring along a drummer & percussionist (both late middle aged) into the jazz scene - they have the chops and great enthusiasm but they will never catch up because they think jazz is for showing off - it's really about interpretting the 'tune'
 
#37
Tupac said:
It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz. It's a lot more difficult and complex than pop and rock, but that's about it. Compared to the prog genres for example, it's about the same... but I don't know about Tech Death. Sure they play in 6/4, swing, and 7th chords, but it's nothing outstanding I think. They do not deserve all the attention they get. Now, let me introduce you to some very complex music:


Blotted Science- Synaptic Plasticity
This is a very interesting one. The time signature changes just about every measure.

Cannibal Corpse- Frantic Disembowelment
Their left hands tell the whole story.

Symphony X-Sea of Lies
More chop hell, as well as some playing with time signatures. I believe the beginning is in 5/4, but there's many breaks with odd things going on, I can never tell.


So, those are just a couple examples. I could have also have posted some Rush or Dream Theater song that anyone would have a field day with, but everyone's already heard those. Don't get me wrong though, jazz musicians are great, but I don't think it's the most difficult genre.
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To defend Jazz, I enjoy rock and metal, I listen and play to Jazz much more.
I have yet to hear metal that uses voicings other than power chords maybe a 7th chord here and there but chords and distortion usually don't mesh. It is not only knowing diatonic harmony, substitutions, and inversions its knowing how to use them over different changes. More importantly its the jazzers with high acclaim because they sound good at such a free art form.
Metal is play this song like this, Jazz is play this song how ever you know how and make it sound good. The improvisational aspect that I do not think you get. Have you ever had/heard a metal "Jam" that sounded good the first time/ever when 4 players are interpreting a chart or playing common cadences just by ear. Playing Jazz over changes that is coherent is quite difficult. Just comping without sounding like a tool is tough enough without a solo over changes. Then add the time signature changes. All the examples are in the same chord with little to no changes. that leaves riffs and rhythm.
Then there is reading, show me one of the example of the metal guys you posted about that could play his own line if it was notated and put in front of them without a title. Similarly show me one of those metal guys that can write his own line with chord analyzation.

Now don't get me wrong I started playing metal first, and listen to Mudvayne next to Miles Davis. But metal is easy, if you truly know rhythm and have clean technique. Jazz is about placement of notes, changing the attack of a note, the space between, and phrasing. hearing a jazz duet where it sounds like two different instruments are having a conversation with pauses, comma's, questions, and answers all without words just the instruments clean. Metal to me only says yes, no, im angry, and f-yeah...party/girls.

My last point at the end of the day is song identity. Part of the core of metal is the inability for others to play it. High level jazz can only be played by when you actually know what you are playing (playing mostly dorian over changes is used to fake a lot of solo's) and can translate that to other musicians (metal orchestra - don't think so). You won't find to many jazzers who can fake chord changes, where metal is easily fakable you just got to be in time, tune, key. Lets keep tempo the same @ 160bpm, in tune/time/ key metal vs Bebop. If there were any chords any jazz player could fake it, reverse show me a metal player that would have the slightest clue what to do. Jazz may not be your cup of tea, but please don't put down Jazz players. We got less audience members than you do :)
 
#40
jmattbassplaya said:
My cover band brought in a sub drummer, who's in the jazz program at UT, for a gig we were doing. He was a great guy and he had killer chops, but my lord that boy did not know how to rawk! Bulls on Parade got turned into a lounge song because of his playing :p
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I have to say, this is soooooo spot on from my experience with jazz drummers. I play with a lot of guys from UNT or recent grads from UNT and I can honestly say there are maybe 2 that I would recommend for any non jazz gigs. Their feel is just off and they hit like little girls. I love jazz and I'm working very hard at becoming a better jazz player after not working on it at all for 10 years so I have all the respect in the world for these and what they can do in that style.
 

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