Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

[Brad Johnson]

People likely put jazz musicians on a pedestal because deep down they don't understand what they're doing. To play jazz at a high level isn't easy for most musicians to grasp. Unlike classical or a lot of the music being discussed here, you don't already have the notes determined for you and you add your feel. Most people find that daunting.

The cool thing about jazz is that when played at a high level the listener doesn't know what to expect either. Do live performances of tunes like "Frost" change much? I don't know. No offense, I can respect the process and skill that went into it but it sounded written out and frankly, predictable. Early on in my career I was impressed with speed and dexterity, once I figured out what was required to get there it became less impressive. The ability to express oneself on the fly strikes home with me now and that could be done with half notes notes.

Time signature changes that occur at the same time in every performance of a composition don't impress me in the least. At it's core, it's counting. Then again when I play odd time signatures (with which has I tend to have little difficulty) I try and feel the piece and specifically not count. Not that I'm saying one way is better than the other.

While I do play jazz, I don't consider myself a jazz musician because I don't play at a high enough level to qualify in my mind.

 

[WoodyG3]

I hold all great musicians in esteem, regardless of genre.

The difficult=good mindset is one I never have ascribed to, but I don't think jazz players are overrated. Underpaid maybe, but not overrated.

I agree. Totally.

Jazz isn't about technical complexity, it's about emotion.

As is all good music.

I like Brubeck, the Monkees, AC/DC, Alison Krauss, Joe Satriani, Beethoven, Judy Collins, Johnny Cash, Ravi Shankar, Rush, Eric Clapton, Woody Guthrie, Seal, Return to Forever, Howlin' Wolf, Adele, Bach, the Archies, MC Hammer...

I don't understand musicians who devalue any musical form, disrespect a musician based on genre or technical ability, or who limit their admiration of artistic ability due to bias and prejudice.

End of rant.

 

[Brad Johnson]

On the what I'd have to guess is the assumed versatility thing, couldn't be farther from the truth

Just because a musician can play something that appears complicated doesn't mean they can play something "simpler". It no longer surprises me based on several real life situations.

I have a friend who is an excellent "progressive jazz" percussionist. Heavily into Will Kennedy and Dave Weckl, could play their recordings note for note. He didn't gig, which surprised me at first. After a fusion-y jam at his house he told me he'd like to get out and play. A friend needed a drummer for a pretty basic R&B/funk hit so I recommended him. Gave him a list of songs so he could get familiar with them. Come gig time, he counts off the first song and simply couldn't "feel" what was going on. His Yellowjackets inspired polyrhythmic mind couldn't play things as "simple" as "I'll take you there"... it was like a foreign language to him how the song breathed. That was a long gig.

So, unless and until you see it, don't assume the guy who can play "Moving Pictures" blindfolded can lay back and play "All Blues".

 

[Nick Dilley]

Wow a lot of generalizing going on here, even for people challenging the generalization of the OP...

Every genre has its own set of challenges and if you take the time to familiarize yourself with one outside your comfort zone--or really dig deep and analyze the ones you are into--you will see that. I've been around the block, and have seen great jazz players who couldn't hold up to the rigors of metal simply because the technique differs--i.e they couldn't play repetitive downstrokes to save their life (guitarists or pick bassists). Does that mean they are "bad"? Hardly. I've played with really talented metal rhythm guitarists/bassists who could rock extreme down-strokes while singing syncopated melodies. But put them in a position where they had to improvise and alternate pick correctly, AND keep a solid swing--they would also look like they just started playing a week ago. Those are just two examples, but if you look at any aspect of either genre, you've got things that are just as challenging or challenging in a different way. If you have a player who isn't used to that style, then there's a learning curve or adjustment period.

In my opinion, as a guy who started in rock/metal and has since branched out, rock musicians are typically overrated in terms of technical skill. That's not to say the best technical players are in rock or metal or jazz. Just saying that there are more rockers that are overrated as players. But you can't just judge a musician by performance. A lot of those overrated players are also great composers, singers, business men, etc.

I guess my point is that it should go on a case to case basis, and you gotta give love where love is due--not just claim someone is overrated based on one's lack of understanding of a certain genre.

I think judging another musician is fine, but it's such a nuanced thing. SO much to consider!!

 

[Tupac]

Jazz isn't about technical complexity, it's about emotion.

Ah... how did I know someone was going to post this? If whatever speaks to you is not in metal, that's fine. We can talk about taste all day. But metal certainly does a great job of portraying its own type of emotions. How about the Frost piece someone else posted, for starters? Beautiful piano work. I'm sure it's there, but I just don't feel the emotion in jazz myself. Popping on loud note, pausing, and then playing some quiet ones doesn't really convey anything (Marcus...). Whereas in the Frost song, I can definitely feel a fluttering sense, almost like sadness with hope. Don't get me wrong though, there's some fantastic jazz musicians I adore (Wooten obviously) but it's just not my thing. My point is, I think we can agree both are on the same emotional level most of the time. Just not in boneheaded metal

 

[fdeck]

Honestly, I play jazz because I was given a chance long ago, and I enjoy playing it. No pedestal needed. I'm just happy to play music.

 

[onosson]

We can talk about taste all day. But metal certainly does a great job of portraying its own type of emotions.

I don't think anyone said that it didn't - I took the point about jazz conveying emotion as a counter to the argument that jazz is just "difficult and complex", according to the OP.

 

[HunterBrodt]

Marcus Miller is hardly jazz that I would judge the entire genre off of.

Put in a love supreme. I'd bet you would find emotion in that

 

[onosson]

Hook, line and sinker...

Also, you jazz-guys are SOOO cute! Smooches.

Careful, this post might be illegal in Arizona!

 

[unlined4string]

I think it comes down to what we see as more difficult. We all want to play quality music at a high level of skill, but some lean toward more pre-rehearsed music while others prefer more improvised music. If the music is of high enough quality it's all challenging, but in different ways. Why do people prefer to listen to one type of music over another? There are as many answers as there are people.

 

[HunterBrodt]

I also think its extremely childish and immature of the op to call an entire genre of music with its very own complex language overrated without even listening to it past people like marcus miller.

 

[Nick Dilley]

Ah... how did I know someone was going to post this? If whatever speaks to you is not in metal, that's fine. We can talk about taste all day. But metal certainly does a great job of portraying its own type of emotions. How about the Frost piece someone else posted, for starters? Beautiful piano work. I'm sure it's there, but I just don't feel the emotion in jazz myself. Popping on loud note, pausing, and then playing some quiet ones doesn't really convey anything (Marcus...). Whereas in the Frost song, I can definitely feel a fluttering sense, almost like sadness with hope. Don't get me wrong though, there's some fantastic jazz musicians I adore (Wooten obviously) but it's just not my thing. My point is, I think we can agree both are on the same emotional level most of the time. Just not in boneheaded metal

Metal does portray it's own emotions...but it's always a relative few. Even as a metalhead myself, I have to agree with whoever it was that said jazz has a deeper range of emotions--actually I believe he said deepest, but I think making a statement to that degree is too subjective.

I love metal, but when you say "a fluttering sense, like sadness with hope" you describe a billion different metal songs. With jazz, you can say this song has "sadness with hope, but last time it was blue and this time it was red." LOL. Sounds corny, but it's true!

When you don't get a certain style of music it's like trying a new food you don't quite know what to think of yet. But, if you keep tasting it, it's like "heeeeeeeeY there you are, tastiness!" My wife is Chinese and she always makes this red-bean stuff and I used to think it was gross, but I kept at it and now it's not like I just tolerate it, I LOVE IT!

Same with a new style of music--right now, listening to metal makes sense. Musically, it's usually fairly straightforward harmonically. Playing in E aeolian makes sense over tasty low-e chug-a-lugs. But maybe--just maybe--you haven't tasted a D note over an E minor chord enough. Or an F# over a G major chord enough to really get the emotions out of them.

Or, speaking of technique... maybe you like downstrokes and blast beats with all sorts of screaming (I know I do!). And maybe--just maybe--you haven't tasted enough swung beats...? I know that when I make a PB&J sandwich, I gotta have a smiley face in my peanut butter. It totally tastes different. Maybe you can't appreciate that yet? Maybe you have to splatter it all over like it's skin turning into liquid (reference!).

 

[lucas vigor]

From a purely technical standpoint, and using the guitar as an example, most jazz guitarists would blow away most metal guitarists.

Why?

Distortion and compression and high volume make things a hell of a lot easier to play.

Try the same thing with just a guitar, amp and at low volumes. Try and control your sound at low volumes. Try and use dynamics. It's not as easier as it sounds.

There are reasons a guitarist with slinky strings and heavy, sustaining distortion can seem to "shred"....

Now do the same thing on a big jazz guitar without all the crutches. Few can.

 

[5StringFool]

It's close. It lacks the complexity to be a truly virtuoso performance right now. But it might get there yet.

Oh my.... hard chuckle right here.... whew! I need to breathe.

I'm taking a jazz history class right now and doing some close critical listening of the genre for the first time in my life. I always thought it was cool but a bit overrated.... now I'm beginning to get it, at least from a listening standpoint. If I ever decide to try and learn how to play this stuff I'll have a LOT of work to do.

 

[Nick Dilley]

lucas,

tisk tisk. you are right and wrong.

You're right that all those qualities CAN make it easy to get away with stuff, but with jazz the complex harmonic structures can let players get away with weird **** too. I know jazzers see that as not getting away with stuff but rather having more options. I would agree. But I hope you believe that for metal players and jazz cats alike, whatever intrinsic advantages or loopholes their genre provides, it doesn't matter when an artist reaches a certain level--they're just not relying on them anymore.

That goes back to my first post on this thread....too much generalizing fighting a generalization!

 

[lucas vigor]

And also, the technical math metal i have heard is a lot of scales and modes....

but with jazz you also have to be able to play that modal stuff (miles, trane, etc) and also be able to play sweetly over major sounding chords...while still playing chromatically. Most metal guitarists know a handful of pentatonic, blues, some modes, a lot of tritones and augmented stuff....but cannot handle a song like "my funny valentine". I have seen them foolishly try and fit their "math" into a song like that, and blow it completly.

Yes, there are surely some that can do it....but they are a minority...yet, MOST jazz guitarists are able to do so much more.

 

[Nick Dilley]

i think this discussion is a lost cause....

 

[M.Wrenn]

oh goodness, ignorance rears its ugly head

 

[Tupac]

Metal does portray it's own emotions...but it's always a relative few. Even as a metalhead myself, I have to agree with whoever it was that said jazz has a deeper range of emotions--actually I believe he said deepest, but I think making a statement to that degree is too subjective.

I love metal, but when you say "a fluttering sense, like sadness with hope" you describe a billion different metal songs. With jazz, you can say this song has "sadness with hope, but last time it was blue and this time it was red." LOL. Sounds corny, but it's true!

When you don't get a certain style of music it's like trying a new food you don't quite know what to think of yet. But, if you keep tasting it, it's like "heeeeeeeeY there you are, tastiness!" My wife is Chinese and she always makes this red-bean stuff and I used to think it was gross, but I kept at it and now it's not like I just tolerate it, I LOVE IT!

Same with a new style of music--right now, listening to metal makes sense. Musically, it's usually fairly straightforward harmonically. Playing in E aeolian makes sense over tasty low-e chug-a-lugs. But maybe--just maybe--you haven't tasted a D note over an E minor chord enough. Or an F# over a G major chord enough to really get the emotions out of them.

Or, speaking of technique... maybe you like downstrokes and blast beats with all sorts of screaming (I know I do!). And maybe--just maybe--you haven't tasted enough swung beats...? I know that when I make a PB&J sandwich, I gotta have a smiley face in my peanut butter. It totally tastes different. Maybe you can't appreciate that yet? Maybe you have to splatter it all over like it's skin turning into liquid (reference!).

I must say... awesome post. Digging the food analogies. And I get your point, but can you (and other people) give me some examples to chew on?

 

[Nick Dilley]

I second that, M..Wrenn.