Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

[NortyFiner]

Technical difficulty has nothing to do with music being "good", be it jazz, metal or otherwise. In fact, I dare say that too much emphasis on technical details can ruin music. Some of the worst noise I've ever heard was produced by bands focused too much on technicality, and not enough on musicality. And many of the "best" songs and albums of all time are very simple musically. MHO, of course.

 

[Lonesomedave]

actually, they're not...here's why

they can play anything that any other musician can play (with the possible exception of some really complicated classical stuff, and i am not too sure about that)...that means YOU! they can play anything that YOU can play.

YOU cannot play anything that they can play. not even close. maybe some stuff, butchered up, but not really.

K?

 

[vin*tone]

Tupac you still missed the point about improvisation. Imagine if Canibal Corpse played that tune in your OP with the 2nd and 3rd verses different EVERY time they gigged.

 

[Kwesi]

I'm all for throwing out more listening material! Check this guy out! There's plenty of "Can hands even move like that?!" moments too :

Shnabubula - Morning Commute (Free Play) - YouTube

Shnabubula - Milky Way (Free Play) - YouTube

Just to give you a little background on how insane this actually is, the guy sat down and laid out the piano part completely off the cuff. No music in front of him, no editing, no breaks. Straight up improv. Then, he took the recording and layered other instruments over it. I have seen this guy work it is the most incredible thing I've ever laid eyes on. I've even gotten the chance to play with him! Removing the smile from my face when I was up on that stage would've been damn near impossible.

 

[Wasted Bassist]

This is quite possibly one of the least intelligent posts I've seen on this website. I play in a jazz big band and 2 jazz combos as well as an incredibly technical progressive metal band. I have to work just as hard at my jazz rep as I do to learn the tunes for my metal band.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Many jazz musicians can't play other music authentically. It might seem like that on paper.


The first group I hooked up with when I got to DC from the Air Force back in the early 80's was supposedly a fusion quartet. I came up listening to pretty much any genre available and played a lot of early fusion. These guys were into Level 42. One thing a couple of them made a point of expressing was their disdain for James Brown. After hearing this over and over again for a month I suggested we try a JB song the next time we got together, you know... just for grins.

It sounded like Devo doing a JB cover. It was comical. They had learned all of the notes and clearly didn't have the slightest idea of where to actually put them. Like an early drum machine before quantizing.

I've seen jazz guitarists completely screw up funk music by trying to force 5 note chords in where a simple three note stroke worked perfectly. Or simply sounding bored with music that wasn't more complicated.

Over the years I've seen accomplished (in their chosen genre) players who suck at anything outside of that. Sometimes from a disdain for a "lesser" genre, more often just because they honestly couldn't get inside the music.

So once again "better" is largely contextual. The right guy for the job may not be the most "skilled" on paper. It'll probably be the one who actually "hears" the music.

 

[bass12]

actually, they're not...here's why

they can play anything that any other musician can play (with the possible exception of some really complicated classical stuff, and i am not too sure about that)...that means YOU! they can play anything that YOU can play.

YOU cannot play anything that they can play. not even close. maybe some stuff, butchered up, but not really.

K?

This is so far from the truth that I have to chuckle. I can't tell you how many gigs I've played (pop, R&B, Afro-Latin, etc.) where very good jazz players just couldn't cut it (drummers usually being the worst).

 

[makkE]

THERE IS NO MUSICAL HIERARCHY. Within each style of music that exists there are people who can touch that universal moment of truth and beauty. And there are many many many people within each style that have no ****ing clue.

I could not have put this any better.
It took me quite some years to learn this.

 

[cnltb]

It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz. It's a lot more difficult and complex than pop and rock, but that's about it. Compared to the prog genres for example, it's about the same... but I don't know about Tech Death. Sure they play in 6/4, swing, and 7th chords, but it's nothing outstanding I think. They do not deserve all the attention they get. Now, let me introduce you to some very complex music:


Blotted Science- Synaptic Plasticity
This is a very interesting one. The time signature changes just about every measure.

Cannibal Corpse- Frantic Disembowelment
Their left hands tell the whole story.

Symphony X-Sea of Lies
More chop hell, as well as some playing with time signatures. I believe the beginning is in 5/4, but there's many breaks with odd things going on, I can never tell.


So, those are just a couple examples. I could have also have posted some Rush or Dream Theater song that anyone would have a field day with, but everyone's already heard those. Don't get me wrong though, jazz musicians are great, but I don't think it's the most difficult genre.

To be honest, I don't find those three clips all too impressive.
Over-rated musicians exist in every genre, so they do not really prove a point either.
What makes you say that Jazzmusicians are significantly over rated, singling them out ?

 

[rockosocko]

It's one thing to say that Rock and Pop musicians are under ated, which I completly agree with. However, that is not to say that jazz players are ove rated.In any case, music should not be about who is better or who is worse.

 

[ggunn]

So can Allan Holdsworth.

And he's been that good for a very long time. The first time I heard Gong "Expresso" (now renamed "Gazeuse") back in the 70's, my jaw was on the floor.

 

[ggunn]

Someone who can fly around the fretboard, and pick extremely fast means NOTHING to me if they sound mechanical.

Beat me up if you want, but that is how I feel about Eric Johnson. I stand in awe of his gymnastics on the Strat, but his music just doesn't stick in my head.

 

[ggunn]

Speaking of Pat Metheny...

Invalid Link Removed

It's an old link but it's still pretty funny.

 

[carlthegroover]

There is room for both, and then some!
I dont always listen to music because I want to dance,
and I dont always listen because I want to cry.
Sometimes I want music to make me think,
others I want it to teach me what its like to die.
There are times I want it to wake me up,
and times I want it to take me away.
Often times I listen while getting ****ed up,
and somtimes only it can ease my pain.

Yes, I agree, that's why I said "in my book". Music has become my escape from daily life (which normally contains large hours of thinking) an so I prefer something I can get lost into. It doesn't have to be a three chord song either. I've been listening to a bit of jazz lately, and I can definitely get lost in it, because it has a groove. I don't even have to dance to it, just go with the flow. When I can't, well, it's not my kind of music.

So, yes, I guess it depends on the person and what his or her musical goals are. Mine, at the moment, are simply to listen and to find what moves me.

To simply put it: Why not? If you want to "leave over-thinking to the mathematicians" then you must not be willing to push your playing to the limit. I mean, it's not something I'd like to listen to all the time, but I think it's inspiring and fun to go as far as human limits will allow. And if we're going by your scale, I could think of a lot more bands are better to dance to than jazz.

No, no, no. Bad kid. Don't you start generalizing and assuming because of one answer. You have absolutely no idea why I play music, and it is CERTAINLY NOT why you do so. If you want to stay out of the path of ignorance, stop assuming.

And you forgot something glaringly obvious, didn't you? What part of "in my book" do you not understand? Did I say that should be the case with ALL musicians? Of course not! Read my comment and try again, rookie.

P.S. I am really starting to like listening to jazz, for your information.

 

[onosson]

I'm all for throwing out more listening material! Check this guy out! There's plenty of "Can hands even move like that?!" moments too :

Shnabubula - Morning Commute (Free Play) - YouTube

Shnabubula - Milky Way (Free Play) - YouTube

Just to give you a little background on how insane this actually is, the guy sat down and laid out the piano part completely off the cuff. No music in front of him, no editing, no breaks. Straight up improv. Then, he took the recording and layered other instruments over it. I have seen this guy work it is the most incredible thing I've ever laid eyes on. I've even gotten the chance to play with him! Removing the smile from my face when I was up on that stage would've been damn near impossible.

Sounds like he's listened to some Zappa....

 

[Jim Nazium]

It's OK, when I was 17 I thought metal guys were the only good musicians too.

 

[cnltb]

I'm all for throwing out more listening material! Check this guy out! There's plenty of "Can hands even move like that?!" moments too :

Shnabubula - Morning Commute (Free Play) - YouTube

Shnabubula - Milky Way (Free Play) - YouTube

Just to give you a little background on how insane this actually is, the guy sat down and laid out the piano part completely off the cuff. No music in front of him, no editing, no breaks. Straight up improv. Then, he took the recording and layered other instruments over it. I have seen this guy work it is the most incredible thing I've ever laid eyes on. I've even gotten the chance to play with him! Removing the smile from my face when I was up on that stage would've been damn near impossible.

Some more linkage.
Art Tatum -- Yesterdays - YouTube



...damn...all those over rated jazz musicians using up so much bandwidth... .

 

[skychief]

What makes you think that the top Jazz players could not play that style of music?
Do you think any of the players you mentioned could play Jazz?

Well said!!

ermm... I mean Well asked!!!

 

[M0ses]

Anyone ever heard of the Chris Davis trio?

Chris Dave Trio 'You're Under Arrest' (set 1) LIVE Charlie Wrights - YouTube

Now you have. LULZ yeah that's easy for sure.

 

[lfmn16]

Name some of the "jazz" you're listening to.

I agree there are lots of great players in all genres and yes even some jazz cats are overrated but c'mon man.......

+1

What the OP is doing is pulling out some exceptions to the norm which prove his argument. If you compare MOST jazz to MOST rock, jazz is much more difficult to play well.

OP - listen to some Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Miles Davis, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis and then come back.