Just because they write technical pieces doesn't mean they read or write music. They may or may not be able to. I was speaking in general more towards the kiddos, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of those bands didn't read sheet music.
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Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.
- Thread starter Tupac
- Start date
Just because they write technical pieces doesn't mean they read or write music. They may or may not be able to. I was speaking in general more towards the kiddos, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of those bands didn't read sheet music.
Clef, your posts are consistently intelligent....and i like them not because I agree (I do) but because they are correct.
Everything in prog metal owes itself to the innovations created by jazz and classical music. Without question.
Roy Vogt
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Being a lot less diplomatic, if we're really measuring difficulty, I find it humbling that there are people in their 50's and 60's who have been playing guitar longer than many of these "technically superior" metal heads have been alive AND they're still learning.
I have some Pat Martino transcriptions from some of his early recordings as well as Joyous Lake. When I want to have my tail thoroughly kicked I take them out and try to play them at his tempo. Not for the faint of heart!
FWIW, the first time I met Jeff Berlin he was reading through a Pat Martino solo he had transcribed from a board tape from a gig he had played with Pat. If you ever thing you're a bad guitarist or bassist try playing a Chick Corea, John Coltrane or Pat Martino solo sometime.
Funny thing about music that is overtly technically complex: it is often only liked only by other musicians and can be very difficult, if not painful to listen to. Not implying I don't enjoy music with some level of technicality, but when it's over the top, the music seems to loose its appeal for me.
Saw Return to Forever a few years back. Lots of jaws on the floor for that show. I highly doubt the shred crowd could seriously pull it off. This is when a shredder like Tupac would say something like "well, it's not a competition" even though thy brought it up as a competition.
As a former metal head, prog metal is easy compared to the likes of Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, et al.
Funny, they'll be the first to claim that they can play 13/8 timing, but seldom practice with a metronome.
The earliest metal quite obviously came from the blues...but in the 80's the style of those guitarists sounded a lot more like classical style then anything else. Even classical music had it's "rock stars" back then...guys who had you given an electric guitar to, would have not been at a disadvantage. Musicians like Paganini and liszt.
When I first started hearing musicians like Steve Vai and Randy Rhoads, Michael Shenker and others...it is quite clear that their style of playing leads had all the flourishes and embellishments that were far more typical of a concert violinist then some bluesman in the mississipi delta.
And this new stuff, all this "prog" stuff and "math" stuff...even more so sounds like stuff the classical composers were doing as early as 1920.
Clef de fa had it quite correct. Bartok, Shoenberg, etc....listen to it and then tell me that modern metal is totally original. It's not. It's all been done before.
So, I am not sure I understand your statement about "backbeat". Are you referring to the use of a drum set? Yes, that is something that classical music does not have. But the odd time signatures, episodic songs...all of that comes from classical.
And if you listen to mid 60's era Miles Davis, you will also hear lots of modes and exotic scales...same types that modern metal players are using.
Hey, I am in no way knocking modern metal musicians. Some of that stuff is very, very hard to play.
And to those that are question why complex music should be superior...I agree with them. But this conversation seemed to start out about the purely technical aspects of Jazz compared to modern metal, so that's what I am talking about.
When I first started hearing musicians like Steve Vai and Randy Rhoads, Michael Shenker and others...it is quite clear that their style of playing leads had all the flourishes and embellishments that were far more typical of a concert violinist then some bluesman in the mississipi delta.
And this new stuff, all this "prog" stuff and "math" stuff...even more so sounds like stuff the classical composers were doing as early as 1920.
Clef de fa had it quite correct. Bartok, Shoenberg, etc....listen to it and then tell me that modern metal is totally original. It's not. It's all been done before.
So, I am not sure I understand your statement about "backbeat". Are you referring to the use of a drum set? Yes, that is something that classical music does not have. But the odd time signatures, episodic songs...all of that comes from classical.
And if you listen to mid 60's era Miles Davis, you will also hear lots of modes and exotic scales...same types that modern metal players are using.
Hey, I am in no way knocking modern metal musicians. Some of that stuff is very, very hard to play.
And to those that are question why complex music should be superior...I agree with them. But this conversation seemed to start out about the purely technical aspects of Jazz compared to modern metal, so that's what I am talking about.
I was taking exception to your having suggested that "Everything in prog metal owes itself to the innovations created by jazz and classical music. Without question.". This is wrong. The backbeat played on the drums is one example. The use of effects (and how those effects influence both the performance, and timbral aspects, of the music) is another.
Wow, it seems like this Tupac kiddie has been thrashed. Poor guy. This is a good example of what happens when someone bashes something without knowing it better. It's ugly, mostly for the basher. 
Anyways, I am quite enjoying the reading of this thread, and I've learned a thing or two in the process. Nice one, guys.
Anyways, I am quite enjoying the reading of this thread, and I've learned a thing or two in the process. Nice one, guys.
Playing a Trumpet at 300bmp isn't forgiving at all, in fact all classical instrument are very hard to play and aren't forgiving with your technic while playing guitar with a lot of distortion you can hide many mistakes.
I know that metal couldn't sound like that without loud distorted guitar and a very active drum. But ... they still owe a lot to classical composer like Bartòk ( who invented a very big DB that needed two musician to play ) or the discovery of dodecaphonism and serialism or Stravinsky and even Bach.
listen to that ... DISCLAIMER: it is very hard to listen to ... if you can't feel the horror ... well I don't know what to say. I think it is more metal than metal ...
Penderecki: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima - YouTube
Does anyone else notice that Tupac seems to be the person in this thread most willing to look for things to listen to and expand his mind, while almost everyone else is constantly arguing the same point?
If you're going to rag on the OP, at least make sure you're keeping up with his posts instead of just reading the first and posting a gut reaction.
If you're going to rag on the OP, at least make sure you're keeping up with his posts instead of just reading the first and posting a gut reaction.
Kid, let me break something to you that you aren't old enough to know yet- Jazz is improvisation. Not chops or technical skills, nor creating a part and playing it every time the song is performed... Now go practice and get yourself a jazz teacher...
Ok, let's see if what you're saying is right:
Tupac's posts...
1) The OP statement - well, you can go back and read it. Very judgemental and narrow minded if you ask me. He's starting by overgeneralizing about a whole genre (which is huge).
2) "Symphony X are really great aren't they? One of my favorites. Their guitarist does some pretty incredible stuff. And yes, jazz musicians are great don't get me wrong, but I just think there's more difficult stuff out there."
- Ok, he keeps talking about metal here. No change.
3)"To simply put it: Why not? If you want to "leave over-thinking to the mathematicians" then you must not be willing to push your playing to the limit. I mean, it's not something I'd like to listen to all the time, but I think it's inspiring and fun to go as far as human limits will allow. And if we're going by your scale, I could think of a lot more bands are better to dance to than jazz."
- He was answering to my first post, very arrogantly and assuming things about a total stranger. Not a good sign.
4)"That's a good point actually, I hadn't considered that. You're certainly right about their versatility. But I also think that the reason why metal musicians don't do that is that they're simply not interested. I can't picture Alex Webster doing a commercial jingle, haha. And that video is crazy. (in the good way)"
- Again, generalizing about jazz. Has he heard all possible varieties of it?
5) "Naw, he was pretty much the best at what he did. Although I'm not exactly an expert on saxophone-ing..."
- No comment.
6) "Ah... how did I know someone was going to post this? If whatever speaks to you is not in metal, that's fine. We can talk about taste all day. But metal certainly does a great job of portraying its own type of emotions. How about the Frost piece someone else posted, for starters? Beautiful piano work. I'm sure it's there, but I just don't feel the emotion in jazz myself. Popping on loud note, pausing, and then playing some quiet ones doesn't really convey anything (Marcus...). Whereas in the Frost song, I can definitely feel a fluttering sense, almost like sadness with hope. Don't get me wrong though, there's some fantastic jazz musicians I adore (Wooten obviously) but it's just not my thing. My point is, I think we can agree both are on the same emotional level most of the time. Just not in boneheaded metal"
- He just doesn't feel emotion in jazz? That alone gives him credit to bash a whole genre? Not good.
7) "I must say... awesome post. Digging the food analogies. And I get your point, but can you (and other people) give me some examples to chew on?"
"Yeah yeah, I'm interested in hearing what you guys would consider quality jazz music."
- Finally! Some progress.
8) "That's pretty much prog. Although even in prog there's a great amount of compositional effort to sound good, as with any other music. Tech death is pretty much the closest to as hard as possible to be complex, which actually does sound interesting believe it or not."
- No comment. Again. Does hard/ complex necessarily mean good? And just because he thinks jazz isn't as complex as tech death metal, it is overrated?
9) "I hope you aren't implying the bands I posted (or other people posted) are unable to read music. Do you not see what ridiculous things are going on? You're in no position to compare it to jazz if you can't."
- Oops, I thought he was going somewhere. Big no no. Generalizations, again.
... So, nope, I disagree with you, Rudreax. And I've read all his posts. But to give him some credit... his writing is pretty good!
the music you posted above is cool stuff. but its hardly complex. fast minor and diminished triads are not more complex minor or diminished triads. theyre still triads. changing time signatures are fun i guess, too. when it comes to odd rhythm thats not really complex, it just changes a lot. complex rhythms? look at Brahms.
jazz is not neccesarily complex either. miles davis was big on a less is more approach. but i recommend you transcribe some charlie parker solos. his thinking is generally very clever, and well executed.
HOWEVER, my opinions aside, you dont need to like jazz. you dont need to think anything of it at all. but bashing them because you like something else is a poor approach to art.
jazz is not neccesarily complex either. miles davis was big on a less is more approach. but i recommend you transcribe some charlie parker solos. his thinking is generally very clever, and well executed.
HOWEVER, my opinions aside, you dont need to like jazz. you dont need to think anything of it at all. but bashing them because you like something else is a poor approach to art.
Are you saying that you think that there is no jazz with a backbeat? What are you considering to be a backbeat?
No, there's plenty of jazz with a backbeat - but that's not where prog rock/metal bands are getting their influence from in that department. There's also plenty of jazz that features all kinds of effects (distortion, flanging, what have you), but I think it would be inaccurate to attribute the use of such effects in prog rock/metal to jazz.
I don't like complexity for complexity's sake and enjoy a lot of pretty simple stuff, as I'm sure we all do.
On the other hand, complexity can be interesting at times, if it's done well. If you want to listen to someone with an absolute mastery of the full spectrum of musical concepts and how to use them, try some Holst or Stravinsky (yep, another shout out for Igor). Or look out for some of Jerry Goldsmith's film music. There's lots to be learned from that stuff.
On the other hand, complexity can be interesting at times, if it's done well. If you want to listen to someone with an absolute mastery of the full spectrum of musical concepts and how to use them, try some Holst or Stravinsky (yep, another shout out for Igor). Or look out for some of Jerry Goldsmith's film music. There's lots to be learned from that stuff.
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread...just the title. (j/k)
If you have the time, here's 10 minutes and 20 seconds of some players who are not significantly overrated. (IMHO of course..) (with Anthony Jackson on bass too
)
Michel Camilo, Horacio Hernandez and Anthony Jackson - On Fire - YouTube
(j/k)If you have the time, here's 10 minutes and 20 seconds of some players who are not significantly overrated. (IMHO of course..) (with Anthony Jackson on bass too
)Michel Camilo, Horacio Hernandez and Anthony Jackson - On Fire - YouTube
