Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

[lucas vigor]

I was taking exception to your having suggested that "Everything in prog metal owes itself to the innovations created by jazz and classical music. Without question.". This is wrong. The backbeat played on the drums is one example. The use of effects (and how those effects influence both the performance, and timbral aspects, of the music) is another.

Actually, I would disagree...although I was referring to more then just the use of drums or guitar effects...that's the carrot and peas, but the steak is everything else. Perhaps I should have said "almost everything in prog rock came from classical"....and if you look at the original prog rock bands (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc..) one of the first things they did was throw out the blues, and substitute western classical influences..and if not for those 70's pioneering bands, your prog metal would not exist either...metal would have likely stayed in the purely hard, blues' based sound...like AC/DC. It's entirely possible, you know?

As far as the timbral aspects...there are still a lot of similarities...use of a chorus box? Classical musicians just double parts and get a natural chorus effect.
Distortion? Have you ever realized how "distorted" bowed instruments can sound? There is almost a natural distortion and the use of the bow gives sustain naturally.

And as far as the sense of "doom" and "heaviness" prevalent in modern metal...look no further then wagner.

There is classical music out there so frightening and heavy it makes a lot of metal music seem like camp fire songs in comparison...only the music is not artificially heavy as is a lot of metal. In metal, I think they try too hard to be bad-ass.

But listen to "the scythian suite" sometime if you want to be frightened. Then move on to Xenaxis, Lygeti and Elliott Carter...if you truly want to be frightened. And I should warn you, it wont have any of those "cookie monster meets UFC" vocals needed by metal to imply scariness.




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[ugly_bassplayer]

I don't like complexity for complexity's sake and enjoy a lot of pretty simple stuff, as I'm sure we all do.

On the other hand, complexity can be interesting at times, if it's done well. If you want to listen to someone with an absolute mastery of the full spectrum of musical concepts and how to use them, try some Holst or Stravinsky (yep, another shout out for Igor). Or look out for some of Jerry Goldsmith's film music. There's lots to be learned from that stuff.

If The Right of Spring doesn't knock you on your @&*, get your head checked.Stravinsky is a monster, you must see this performed with the Ninjnksi ballet .

 

[bass12]

Actually, I would disagree...although I was referring to more then just the use of drums or guitar effects...that's the carrot and peas, but the steak is everything else. Perhaps I should have said "almost everything in prog rock came from classical"....and if you look at the original prog rock bands (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc..) one of the first things they did was throw out the blues, and substitute western classical influences..and if not for those 70's pioneering bands, your prog metal would not exist either...metal would have likely stayed in the purely hard, blues' based sound...like AC/DC. It's entirely possible, you know?

As far as the timbral aspects...there are still a lot of similarities...use of a chorus box? Classical musicians just double parts and get a natural chorus effect.
Distortion? Have you ever realized how "distorted" bowed instruments can sound? There is almost a natural distortion and the use of the bow gives sustain naturally.

I'm not disagreeing about the impact of various "classical" composers where prog metal is concerned, but I don't see how you can discount the influence of rock 'n' roll in general and other forms of post rock 'n' roll in particular. And come on, you're comparing the natural distortion sound of a bowed instrument to the distortion used in metal? I'd say you're grasping at straws a bit with that one. Regardless, I would rather listen to any of the composers you've mentioned than any of the "prog metal" I've heard. Not my thing at all.

 

[HunterBrodt]

There is a lot of strange time signatures that metal uses... But so does jazz. The difference being that in jazz you improvise in the time signature (Chris potter's the wheel is in 15/8). In metal and other genres they are written and then played exactly the same in that time signature. In my opinion that's a lot easier to do.

Also in a lot of modern jazz multiple time sig. Will be coexisting at the same time. Like the drummers playing in 4/4 while the bassist is in 13/8. This happens in the cover wonder wall by brad mehldau.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

OP is no where to be seen, I wonder why,,,,,

 

[germ_77]

I cant stand jazz music, thats just me. I completely appreciate the skill involved though.

I think there are people over rated in all styles of music, but there are many who are not.

There have been quite a few crazy technical metal bands around my city that have had problems finding good bassists. Most of them could not keep up with all of the changes and crazy progressions/shredding. Most of the ones I saw that finally found a good bassist that just destroyed the place ended up being jazz bassists that also liked playing metal.

 

[FootieSoxx]

The difficult=good mindset is one I never have ascribed to, but I don't think jazz players are overrated. Underpaid maybe, but not overrated.

Definitely underpaid!

Jazz doesn't have to be difficult to be good. The same goes for any genre, from metal to electronic to blues.

The bands OP listed are really awesome and their technical chops are through the roof. That doesn't mean that jazz musicians are any less worthy of recognition...most of them could play those exact same lines on their respective instruments, and pick out the changes by ear, AND take a ridiculously good solo over it.

 

[mellowinman]

Actually, I would disagree...although I was referring to more then just the use of drums or guitar effects...that's the carrot and peas, but the steak is everything else. Perhaps I should have said "almost everything in prog rock came from classical"....and if you look at the original prog rock bands (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc..) one of the first things they did was throw out the blues, and substitute western classical influences..and if not for those 70's pioneering bands, your prog metal would not exist either...metal would have likely stayed in the purely hard, blues' based sound...like AC/DC. It's entirely possible, you know?

As far as the timbral aspects...there are still a lot of similarities...use of a chorus box? Classical musicians just double parts and get a natural chorus effect.
Distortion? Have you ever realized how "distorted" bowed instruments can sound? There is almost a natural distortion and the use of the bow gives sustain naturally.

And as far as the sense of "doom" and "heaviness" prevalent in modern metal...look no further then wagner.

There is classical music out there so frightening and heavy it makes a lot of metal music seem like camp fire songs in comparison...only the music is not artificially heavy as is a lot of metal. In metal, I think they try too hard to be bad-ass.

But listen to "the scythian suite" sometime if you want to be frightened. Then move on to Xenaxis, Lygeti and Elliott Carter...if you truly want to be frightened. And I should warn you, it wont have any of those "cookie monster meets UFC" vocals needed by metal to imply scariness.




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Ha! Ha ha! Somehow, I picture a stoned to the gills Hunter Thompson leaning in and intoning "hit 'em with the Wagner!"

Ha!

 

[mellowinman]

I cant stand jazz music, thats just me. I completely appreciate the skill involved though.

I think there are people over rated in all styles of music, but there are many who are not.

There have been quite a few crazy technical metal bands around my city that have had problems finding good bassists. Most of them could not keep up with all of the changes and crazy progressions/shredding. Most of the ones I saw that finally found a good bassist that just destroyed the place ended up being jazz bassists that also liked playing metal.

You can't stand jazz music? Are you sure you've listened to every style? There's a lot encompassed by the term "jazz music."

 

[germ_77]

You can't stand jazz music? Are you sure you've listened to every style? There's a lot encompassed by the term "jazz music."

The odd time I found some rockabilly and psychobilly bands that do some jazz tunes that I really like but yeah a lot of it is more than likely that I have just not listened to enough to find a style of jazz that I like.

In general I do like all music, I have been in bands ranging from bluegrass and country to death metal and black metal.

I just havent really listened enough to the jazz genre to know a whole lot about it.....but.....if I was at a place and a live jazz band was playing I would be all over it, no question there.

 

[lucas vigor]

I'm not disagreeing about the impact of various "classical" composers where prog metal is concerned, but I don't see how you can discount the influence of rock 'n' roll in general and other forms of post rock 'n' roll in particular. And come on, you're comparing the natural distortion sound of a bowed instrument to the distortion used in metal? I'd say you're grasping at straws a bit with that one. Regardless, I would rather listen to any of the composers you've mentioned than any of the "prog metal" I've heard. Not my thing at all.

Bass player magazine had at least two articles in some issues over the last year that said essentially the same thing. The bow on an upright gave a tone that was similar enough to merit exercises for upright players that were built off metal riffs.

 

[joebar]

i don`t know how this will translate, but i recently got into playing and deeply learning jazz out of boredom; i needed a challenge musically speaking. but then again i am a knowledge junkie lol.
i also seem to enjoy the complexity, extended chordings, inversions and voice leadings etc.
after many years of playing and thinking i knew a fair amount of theory and such, i have had more lightbulb moments studying jazz than i did listening to other styles.
i believe that knowing how to play jazz gives you far more options as a musician that carry over into any musical situation.
it will make you a better musician IMO, YMMV...

 

[lucas vigor]

The odd time I found some rockabilly and psychobilly bands that do some jazz tunes that I really like but yeah a lot of it is more than likely that I have just not listened to enough to find a style of jazz that I like.

In general I do like all music, I have been in bands ranging from bluegrass and country to death metal and black metal.

I just havent really listened enough to the jazz genre to know a whole lot about it.....but.....if I was at a place and a live jazz band was playing I would be all over it, no question there.

Miles Davis - Miles Davis Live In Europe 1967 Trailer - YouTube

 

[lucas vigor]

OP is no where to be seen, I wonder why,,,,,

Maybe he saw this youtube:

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and freaked out.

 

[pnchad]

that is very cool - really shows the phrasing against time - I'll be using these

thanks

 

[mellowinman]

Maybe he saw this youtube:

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and freaked out.

So why did I have an enormous s--- eating grin on my face the entire time I watched and listened to that?

Is that normal?

 

[mcblahflooper94]

It seems like he... ragequitted

 

[Stilettoprefer]

Jazz music requires A LOT of theoretical learning and very good technique. Classical music as well, but not as much theory because all of the notes are written on the page.

In jazz you have to be fricken smart because it is all about improvising. In jazz you don't want to sound like "that guy", you want to sound like yourself because anyone can go listen to "that guy". Being "that guy" is a good thing, because copy cats won't get the attention, you will.

Classical requires a lot of technical training because you have to be able to sight read PERFECTLY and be able to play whatever is put in front of you. Usually classical players are hired and put on stage with music that they haven't seem before. Your big wig rock groups spend countless hours rehearsing and working with the musicians that they play with all the time to get that technical music down pat. The classical players can't rehearse like that, so they build the skills to perform just as well without the rehearsal and familiar musicians, and perform their best the first time they see the music.

And if you are a successful jazz player, you can play pretty much anything because you know all of the necessary theory and have the basic skills and abilities to mold your style to almost any genre (middle eastern for example is difficult).

Basically, classical and jazz music requires a ton of brains and skill, making those musicians very versatile in whatever musical situation that they are put into. The big jazz cats definitely deserve their titles and praise.

EDIT: Another advantage that jazz players have is being able to analyze almost any kind of music deeply rather than just passively listening to it for the beat or melody. I enjoy figuring out the chord progressions (stuff like "blitzkrieg bop" using a 1-4-5 progression in pretty much the whole song) and the little nuances that create the sound of that kind of music.

 

[onosson]

Jazz music requires A LOT of theoretical learning and very good technique. Classical music as well, but not as much theory because all of the notes are written on the page.

I've always wondered about this - wouldn't knowledge of theory benefit the classical musician just as much, even if the notes are written out? I've never been a classical player, but my ex girlfriend is a cellist and she studied a lot of theory - but it was quite different than what I've seen of jazz theory.

 

[Sav'nBass]

I still don't see why technical difficulty and playing at the speed of light are considered to be so important or superior. That's not what I look for when I hear music, and I'm sure most people out there (non musicians) aren't exactly looking for a "song that changes time signatures every measure".
In my book, if you can't groove or dance to it, it's not my thing. What good is music if you can't let yourself loose in it? Leave the complexity and the over-thinking to mathematicians.

Or sing it.... for me if you have to scream it .. or snarl it.. ennhh Although I know folks who let them,selves go in the snarling Metal music too... it just isn't and never was for me.. Some of it sounds like demonic nonsense to me..

The difficult=good mindset is one I never have ascribed to, but I don't think jazz players are overrated. Underpaid maybe, but not overrated.

+1

Man.... look:
When it comes to music, there are only two kinds: Good and bad.

Lumping one kind of music (and the musicians that play it) as being "good" or "bad" is just the most pointless kind of bickering that there is.

So why did I have an enormous s--- eating grin on my face the entire time I watched and listened to that?

Is that normal?

... and that was just the horn part... LOL..


... and the fact that unless it is just very bad ... that is in the ear of the listener. I have heard some old school jazz that sounded .. a lot like the death screech metal .. only with horns.. that did nothing for me either. Even though I just do not like metal ... or at least 80% of what I have heard over the last 40+ years .. I still wouldn't call the genre over rated just because I don't care for it...

Oh and one more thing.. with the classic jazz musicians like Trane & Monk .. Dizz and Miles, Billie & Sassy etc etc etc..
.. what you must remember grasshopper is that when they were doingwhat they were doing back in the day .. no one else was doing it quite like that.. It's the same with Hendrix.. and say.. Graham .. or even Jaco for that matter. You look at a lot of stuff these cats did and compare it to today's stuff.. and there are guys that technically will blow the doors off of them... but they were the pioneers... I don't know of too many bassists that were using harmonics and playing the way that Jaco was. There was time when the only slap bass you heard was on a Sly and the Family Stone record... Trane changed the way the horn was played... just like Graham & Jaco did for bass ...

You must respect the giants upon whose shoulders you stand... even if you don't care for their work... otherwise you (a general you..) just look foolish and arrogant.

Oh wait.. he left the building?