• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

#181
Stilettoprefer said:
Jazz music requires A LOT of theoretical learning and very good technique. Classical music as well, but not as much theory because all of the notes are written on the page.

In jazz you have to be fricken smart because it is all about improvising. In jazz you don't want to sound like "that guy", you want to sound like yourself because anyone can go listen to "that guy". Being "that guy" is a good thing, because copy cats won't get the attention, you will.

Classical requires a lot of technical training because you have to be able to sight read PERFECTLY and be able to play whatever is put in front of you. Usually classical players are hired and put on stage with music that they haven't seem before. Your big wig rock groups spend countless hours rehearsing and working with the musicians that they play with all the time to get that technical music down pat. The classical players can't rehearse like that, so they build the skills to perform just as well without the rehearsal and familiar musicians, and perform their best the first time they see the music.

And if you are a successful jazz player, you can play pretty much anything because you know all of the necessary theory and have the basic skills and abilities to mold your style to almost any genre (middle eastern for example is difficult).

Basically, classical and jazz music requires a ton of brains and skill, making those musicians very versatile in whatever musical situation that they are put into. The big jazz cats definitely deserve their titles and praise.

EDIT: Another advantage that jazz players have is being able to analyze almost any kind of music deeply rather than just passively listening to it for the beat or melody. I enjoy figuring out the chord progressions (stuff like "blitzkrieg bop" using a 1-4-5 progression in pretty much the whole song) and the little nuances that create the sound of that kind of music.
Click to expand...

All I can say is, I was classically trained when very young, and I didn't have the discipline to cut it. Although I work very hard to play rock/pop/blues music, I would never lie to you and say it takes tons of discipline. I spend 1/10th or less of the time classical musicians spend training and practicing.

I'm sure "technical metal" is very difficult, but I still have a hard time believing it could be half as hard to play as it is to listen to.
 
#182
lucas vigor said:
Bass player magazine had at least two articles in some issues over the last year that said essentially the same thing. The bow on an upright gave a tone that was similar enough to merit exercises for upright players that were built off metal riffs.
Click to expand...

So there you go - the classical musicians were actually being influenced by the metal players. :smug:
 
#183
This feud between metal and jazz players is amusing. I feel like y'all should be allies rather than enemies. As I see it, you're pretty much in the same boat.

Both prog metal and jazz are a form of music that has incredible musicianship but relatively no fans, that most musicians can't play and college girls can't dance to? Am I right?
 
#184
Tupac said:
It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz. It's a lot more difficult and complex than pop and rock, but that's about it. Compared to the prog genres for example, it's about the same... but I don't know about Tech Death. Sure they play in 6/4, swing, and 7th chords, but it's nothing outstanding I think. They do not deserve all the attention they get. Now, let me introduce you to some very complex music:


Blotted Science- Synaptic Plasticity
This is a very interesting one. The time signature changes just about every measure.

Cannibal Corpse- Frantic Disembowelment
Their left hands tell the whole story.

Symphony X-Sea of Lies
More chop hell, as well as some playing with time signatures. I believe the beginning is in 5/4, but there's many breaks with odd things going on, I can never tell.


So, those are just a couple examples. I could have also have posted some Rush or Dream Theater song that anyone would have a field day with, but everyone's already heard those. Don't get me wrong though, jazz musicians are great, but I don't think it's the most difficult genre.
Click to expand...

Revisit this post in ten years time...
 
#185
Zoa said:
This feud between metal and jazz players is amusing. I feel like y'all should be allies rather than enemies. As I see it, you're pretty much in the same boat.

Both prog metal and jazz are a form of music that has incredible musicianship but virtually no fans, that most musicians can't play and college girls can't dance to? Am I right?
Click to expand...

i've never been to the vanguard without a pretty large crowd there. because you dont like jazz doesent mean there arent any jazz fans. infact, jazz festival events happen several times a year here in NY, and they're tremendously popular.
 
#186
groooooove said:
i've never been to the vanguard without a pretty large crowd there. because you dont like jazz doesent mean there arent any jazz fans. infact, jazz festival events happen several times a year here in NY, and they're tremendously popular.
Click to expand...

Oh don't get me wrong, I love jazz, Miles Davis is one of my favorite artists ever. I do listen to some prog metal as well. And yes, some of both genres can pull in an audience, but compared to any other musical genre?
The general populace doesn't really care about jazz or metal. Which is a shame, but its true.

I'm also editing my original post to read "relatively no fans" rather than "virtually." Just trying to poke some fun and make a point.

Heck, when I tried to introduce my 13-year-old sister to some tech/prog/frog metal the other day, she said, quote, "Sounds like a bunch of angry jazz with distortion and Cookie Monster on vocals. Play me some Marvin Gaye."
 
#187
Zoa said:
This feud between metal and jazz players is amusing. I feel like y'all should be allies rather than enemies. As I see it, you're pretty much in the same boat.

Both prog metal and jazz are a form of music that has incredible musicianship but virtually no fans, that most musicians can't play and college girls can't dance to? Am I right?
Click to expand...

There's no feud.
 
#190
Stilettoprefer said:
Jazz music requires A LOT of theoretical learning and very good technique. Classical music as well, but not as much theory because all of the notes are written on the page.

In jazz you have to be fricken smart because it is all about improvising. In jazz you don't want to sound like "that guy", you want to sound like yourself because anyone can go listen to "that guy". Being "that guy" is a good thing, because copy cats won't get the attention, you will.

Classical requires a lot of technical training because you have to be able to sight read PERFECTLY and be able to play whatever is put in front of you. Usually classical players are hired and put on stage with music that they haven't seem before. Your big wig rock groups spend countless hours rehearsing and working with the musicians that they play with all the time to get that technical music down pat. The classical players can't rehearse like that, so they build the skills to perform just as well without the rehearsal and familiar musicians, and perform their best the first time they see the music.

And if you are a successful jazz player, you can play pretty much anything because you know all of the necessary theory and have the basic skills and abilities to mold your style to almost any genre (middle eastern for example is difficult).

Basically, classical and jazz music requires a ton of brains and skill, making those musicians very versatile in whatever musical situation that they are put into. The big jazz cats definitely deserve their titles and praise.

EDIT: Another advantage that jazz players have is being able to analyze almost any kind of music deeply rather than just passively listening to it for the beat or melody. I enjoy figuring out the chord progressions (stuff like "blitzkrieg bop" using a 1-4-5 progression in pretty much the whole song) and the little nuances that create the sound of that kind of music.
Click to expand...

Again, the bolded part, while it might make sense on paper, is only a given on paper. IRL I've seen accomplished musicians from just about any genre who struggle outside their comfort zone. Granted it's pretty surprising when you first experience it. I know it was for me. What's "simple" can vary greatly from musician to musician regardless of their perceived musical competence.

I'd also think classical musicians would need to be pretty deep on theory. It just makes sense in order to get to that level of musical competence IMO IME
 
#192
Brad Johnson said:
I've seen accomplished musicians from just about any genre who struggle outside their comfort zone. Granted it's pretty surprising when you first experience it. I know it was for me. What's "simple" can vary greatly from musician to musician regardless of their perceived musical competence.
Click to expand...

I think it comes down to 'feel.' Someone could play all the right notes, but maybe not in the right spot, or with the right nuances.
 
#193
metal.jpg
 
#198
Stanley Clarke, who is a classically trained bassist, has no trouble moving from jazz to rock to funk to classical. He's not hampered by a genre boundary. Likewise Marcus, Victor, Anthony Jackson John Patitucci and Alphonso Johnson are very versatile.

A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! :cool:
 
#200
mellowinman said:
I'm sure "technical metal" is very difficult, but I still have a hard time believing it could be half as hard to play as it is to listen to.
Click to expand...

I have a theory...

You say technical metal is difficult to listen to. I can see where this can come from, even though I tend to like a lot of technical metal. However, I think the more technical jazz pieces are much more difficult to listen to, to my ears.

The reason for this I think, is before you can appreciate the full and most complex side of a genre of music, you have to become familiar with the simpler side of it first to become acclimated to the genre. I think there's some truth to that, as I enjoy listening to some of the groovier but more basic jazz stuff rather than the 320 bpm saxophone solos. I was the same way with metal when I started to listen to it. I listened to some more basic music before I became more familiar with the genre and then I came to appreciate the technical aspect over time.

That's why these threads always end up being so pointless. The metal guys try to woo the jazz guys with all the technical aspects of the genre and vice-versa, but neither one of the sides will ever see the other's point that way. Why not try and move towards appreciating more genres by introducing people through the simpler side of the music first?

That being said, what do you all think of that theory? Can anyone recommend me some good, groovy jazz stuff that a rock/metal guy would be able to listen to and appreciate a bit easier?
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back