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Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

#41
Tupac said:
It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz. It's a lot more difficult and complex than pop and rock, but that's about it. Compared to the prog genres for example, it's about the same... but I don't know about Tech Death. Sure they play in 6/4, swing, and 7th chords, but it's nothing outstanding I think. They do not deserve all the attention they get. Now, let me introduce you to some very complex music:


Blotted Science- Synaptic Plasticity
This is a very interesting one. The time signature changes just about every measure.

Cannibal Corpse- Frantic Disembowelment
Their left hands tell the whole story.

Symphony X-Sea of Lies
More chop hell, as well as some playing with time signatures. I believe the beginning is in 5/4, but there's many breaks with odd things going on, I can never tell.


So, those are just a couple examples. I could have also have posted some Rush or Dream Theater song that anyone would have a field day with, but everyone's already heard those. Don't get me wrong though, jazz musicians are great, but I don't think it's the most difficult genre.
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Flashy yes. Jazz isn't about flashy, it's about improvisation. It's the art of coming up with lyrical lines and innovative ways to improvise an existing melody. Virtuosity is only a means to achieve this, not an end goal.

Thanks for the vids though. They've got chops for sure.
 
#42
Have you ever, you know, played jazz?

I've played just about every kind of music out there. I like a lot of it. I've played rock, funk, ska, prog, classical, not much metal but I've dabbled. I consider myself primarily a jazz player.

Anyone can play notes. Anyone can sit down and play the head to Summertime. Duh. No one every claimed that that was difficult. Anyone can train themselves to be able to play fast enough to play speed metal.

But if there is any musical activity ever imagined that is more difficult than improvising over a tough set of jazz changes......no. There just isn't.

Go ahead. Give it a try. I guarantee, no matter how fast and clean you can play your sweeping tap-on slap running scales, it won't take you thirty seconds to realize you haven't the faintest idea what you're doing.
 
#44
I'm a jazz fanatic. I listen to jazz sometimes my entire dayjob workday.
Time signatures and speed? ***?
Try two albums;
Bill Evans live at the village vanguard friday night
and bill evans live at the village vanguard sunday night...

Scott LaFaro died a week later. I have listened to those two albums alone probably 1000 hours or more.

Listen to both tho. Same songs more or less, LaFaro plays them differently each night. He was a master- so young, then he died in a car.
Im happy when i can solo in blues format over "All Blues" at maybe a C minus level. Sadly im no jazz player, but I'm a GREAT jazz listener!
 
#45
Adam Wright said:
I have to say, this is soooooo spot on from my experience with jazz drummers. I play with a lot of guys from UNT or recent grads from UNT and I can honestly say there are maybe 2 that I would recommend for any non jazz gigs. Their feel is just off and they hit like little girls. I love jazz and I'm working very hard at becoming a better jazz player after not working on it at all for 10 years so I have all the respect in the world for these and what they can do in that style.
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Really? Well, I know 3 drummers that I went to NT with that can play jazz and rock. In fact, one is currently with Frampton, one is with The Doobie Bros, and the other was in the SNL band and also with Burning Slab and other bands.
 
#47
onosson said:
Exactly. I listen to music (and play it!) to get a feeling, and jazz has the widest and deepest range of feeling outside the various classical musics of the world ~ actually, in that sense I'd have to say it is a form of classical music.
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one of the hallmarks of jazz is that it's pretty much the dominant form of improvisation in western music and has been for some time. Classical music (western), alas, lost that part sometime in the baroque to classical eras........
 
#48
dhsierra1 said:
one of the hallmarks of jazz is that it's pretty much the dominant form of improvisation in western music and has been for some time. Classical music (western), alas, lost that sometime in the baroque to classical eras........
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True, but that doesn't negate the depth of emotion that can be conveyed one bit. There's a famous piece by Benjamin Britten, Adagio for Strings?, that always springs to mind.
 
#51
Pat Metheny can play rings around any prog rock guitarist there is. So can Allan Holdsworth.

Don't get me wrong, I love prog, but the demands of complex jazz music, forcing one to improvise over the most complex rhythms and harmonies -- which requires one to have a true understanding of all the harmonic and rhythmic context -- rather than simply repeating composed parts as in classical music, make it the most mentally demanding of all the music genres, IMO.
 
#53
Plaz said:
-- rather than simply repeating composed parts as in classical music, make it the most mentally demanding of all the music genres, IMO.
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done much classical? :rollno:

No slam on the intensity, complexity and demands of jazz, they're just two different beasts, both very very high functioning, hate to see this go into a competition between the two, there is none because there is none.
 
#54
carlthegroover said:
I still don't see why technical difficulty and playing at the speed of light are considered to be so important or superior. That's not what I look for when I hear music, and I'm sure most people out there (non musicians) aren't exactly looking for a "song that changes time signatures every measure".

In my book, if you can't groove or dance to it, it's not my thing. What good is music if you can't let yourself loose in it? Leave the complexity and the over-thinking to mathematicians.
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Agree
 
#55
dhsierra1 said:
done much classical? :rollno:

No slam on the intensity, complexity and demands of jazz, they're just two different beasts, both very very high functioning, hate to see this go into a competition between the two, there is none because there is none.
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Nine years of classical piano study and twelve years of classical vocal study. Perhaps that's why I find classical playing easier.

Once one has mastered a pre-written part, it's a matter of reproducing the rote action and adding emotion and expressiveness to it, whether solo or in the context of the ensemble.

With Jazz improv, there's no falling back on rote knowledge... if you play the same solo each time, it's not really jazz, you're "cheating."

Not trying to make it a competition or slam anything, just expressing my experience, my views of the comparison, and what I find more difficult and demanding.

Though I did say that the best jazz musicians can play rings around the best prog rock musicians. I do believe that, though I am a huge classic prog fan.
 
#58
Someone isn't good because they can play something technical.

Someone is good when they can play a difficult piece WITH FEELING.

They are also good when they can wring a lot of expression and feeling out something simple.

Someone who can fly around the fretboard, and pick extremely fast means NOTHING to me if they sound mechanical.

Jazz can be difficult to play, but much of the best jazz isn't.

Classical music is the most difficult genre, by quite some bit.

But not everyone who plays it is a master, you know.

I don't like the word "overrated." I think it should go on the thread about overused words on this forum.
 
#59
Hapa said:
To defend Jazz, I enjoy rock and metal, I listen and play to Jazz much more.
I have yet to hear metal that uses voicings other than power chords maybe a 7th chord here and there but chords and distortion usually don't mesh. It is not only knowing diatonic harmony, substitutions, and inversions its knowing how to use them over different changes. More importantly its the jazzers with high acclaim because they sound good at such a free art form.
Metal is play this song like this, Jazz is play this song how ever you know how and make it sound good. The improvisational aspect that I do not think you get. Have you ever had/heard a metal "Jam" that sounded good the first time/ever when 4 players are interpreting a chart or playing common cadences just by ear. Playing Jazz over changes that is coherent is quite difficult. Just comping without sounding like a tool is tough enough without a solo over changes. Then add the time signature changes. All the examples are in the same chord with little to no changes. that leaves riffs and rhythm.
Then there is reading, show me one of the example of the metal guys you posted about that could play his own line if it was notated and put in front of them without a title. Similarly show me one of those metal guys that can write his own line with chord analyzation.

Now don't get me wrong I started playing metal first, and listen to Mudvayne next to Miles Davis. But metal is easy, if you truly know rhythm and have clean technique. Jazz is about placement of notes, changing the attack of a note, the space between, and phrasing. hearing a jazz duet where it sounds like two different instruments are having a conversation with pauses, comma's, questions, and answers all without words just the instruments clean. Metal to me only says yes, no, im angry, and f-yeah...party/girls.

My last point at the end of the day is song identity. Part of the core of metal is the inability for others to play it. High level jazz can only be played by when you actually know what you are playing (playing mostly dorian over changes is used to fake a lot of solo's) and can translate that to other musicians (metal orchestra - don't think so). You won't find to many jazzers who can fake chord changes, where metal is easily fakable you just got to be in time, tune, key. Lets keep tempo the same @ 160bpm, in tune/time/ key metal vs Bebop. If there were any chords any jazz player could fake it, reverse show me a metal player that would have the slightest clue what to do. Jazz may not be your cup of tea, but please don't put down Jazz players. We got less audience members than you do :)
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Exactly. Extremely well put. I enjoy listening to and playing metal. Mostly progressive and technical stuff as was mentioned in the OP. but I also attend an arts school where I play jazz and really study music. I love both genres and respect players in both of them. if you think what a lot of the metal guys do is hard (and it is, I know) try picking up the upright bass. It's a challenge just to play in tune a lot of the time (well, it is for me anyway, But im still new-ish to it). You combine that with having to improvise most of your lines, and keep the time as solid as possible, even at high tempos, and you can see why a lot of jazz cats command respect.
And for the record, every genre has its share of overrated players.

bassybill said:
It's close. It lacks the complexity to be a truly virtuoso performance right now. But it might get there yet.
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Ha! :D
 
#60
I don't even think that I should post on this thread but hey... what the heck....

For a good chunk of my playing life I was a big prog-metal fan, was in bands who had songs where the meters changed frequently and used x/16 meters as well. More recently though, I've found that the language that is improvisation gives me a rush while playing that is unrivaled by anything else I've played, but I have yet to really start playing classical seriously. The demand that comes both physically (chops) and mentally with improvising over a set of changes and doing so with conviction and with musicality is no easy task, and I don't know if its something that can ever be "mastered".

But still, I love good prog-rock and respect all the players who play the music they love, no matter what the genre. IMO there's no competition between genres--at least there shouldn't be--there's only taste and what works for the musician and the listener.
 

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