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Jazz soloing technique

For instance, the song "Bluesette" is in the key of Bb. It starts with a BbMaj7 chord, then an Amin7b5. So far no suprises, everything is diatonic (in the same key).

But the next chord is a D7 - which contains an F#, which isn't a part of the key of Bb - so it's changed to the key of D7 (which is a dominant 7 chord in the key of G).

Let's take a look at those four measures from Bluesette.

We can "borrow" some ideas from this thread like, "don't play the root on Beat 1", or "Don't finish it"...
Here is how I, a soloing looser would interpret those chords.
Good notes to solo (just don't play the root - Bb - with Bbmaj7) - G A C D Eb (Bb - not on Beat 1 for Bbmaj7), and those notes should be good for all 4 measures, all 4 chords.
N.B. It's just to start(!).

"Don't play scales". As an amateur beginner, I would play not in order like G Eb D G C or A C G Eb D G Bb, etc...
Just, explore your world.
Also, from my amateur bass player's experience, I would easily add some true chromatic notes like G#/Ab, or C#/Db, or B/Cb, etc...
Plus those octaves.
Next, I would find two or three possible positions on the fretboard with those note choices.

Now, with my minimum note choices found, it's all about the rhythmic aspect of any phrasing.
We can take just ONE note let's say C and play it in a rhythmically-ornamented way for all those 4 (and/or more) measures.

b.PNG
 
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Let's take a look at those four measures from Bluesette.

We can "borrow" some ideas from this thread like, "don't play the root on Beat 1", or "Don't finish it"...
Here is how I, a soloing looser would interpret those chords.
Good notes to solo (just don't play the root - Bb - with Bbmaj7) - G A C D Eb (Bb - not on Beat 1 for Bbmaj7), and those notes should be good for all 4 measures, all 4 chords.
N.B. It's just to start(!).

"Don't play scales". As an amateur beginner, I would play not in order like G Eb D G C or A C G Eb D G Bb, etc...
Just, explore your world.
Also, from my amateur bass player's experience, I would easily add some true chromatic notes like G#/Ab, or C#/Db, or B/Cb, etc...
Plus those octaves.
Next, I would find two or three possible positions on the fretboard with those note choices.

Now, with my minimum note choices found, it's all about the rhythmic aspect of any phrasing.
We can take just ONE note let's say C and play it in a rhythmically-ornamented way for all those 4 (and/or more) measures.

View attachment 2990548


These are all fine ideas, I guess I'm just not much of an analyzer.

While reading the chord chart for Bluesette I managed to make this by just focusing on the chord changes and what key they are in:



It's not perfect, but it makes the walking and soloing at least coherent and makes it so that I have very little to think about.

Now at some point in the past, I thought a whole lot about scales. So much that when I see a BbMaj7 chord my hand automatically goes to the position of the notes that I need to play. That's just muscle memory and memorizing positions and the notes of a key - which is the hardest part and takes a long time, I'm still working on it too.

Rhythmically I'm just trying to keep the energy of the song going with the walking portion and the solo I'm leaning on ideas that I've heard from saxophone and guitar players in the past.

The only "conscious" thought I'm making while I'm playing through it is: What is that next chord and what key is it in?

Of course there's a million ways to think about this stuff and whatever works for someone is fine as long as it's working and you're making the music that you want to hear.
 
These are all fine ideas, I guess I'm just not much of an analyzer.

While reading the chord chart for Bluesette I managed to make this by just focusing on the chord changes and what key they are in:



It's not perfect, but it makes the walking and soloing at least coherent and makes it so that I have very little to think about.

Now at some point in the past, I thought a whole lot about scales. So much that when I see a BbMaj7 chord my hand automatically goes to the position of the notes that I need to play. That's just muscle memory and memorizing positions and the notes of a key - which is the hardest part and takes a long time, I'm still working on it too.

Rhythmically I'm just trying to keep the energy of the song going with the walking portion and the solo I'm leaning on ideas that I've heard from saxophone and guitar players in the past.

The only "conscious" thought I'm making while I'm playing through it is: What is that next chord and what key is it in?

Of course there's a million ways to think about this stuff and whatever works for someone is fine as long as it's working and you're making the music that you want to hear.


What a nice bass tone! :thumbsup:
You are very good at walking - so confident, so "smooth". I really liked it.
It's cool to transcribe the Sax players' solos but I think any "soloing improvisation" is also an instrument (sound/tone) -oriented" business.
 
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with all the subject matter in this article. But it's on topic so I thought I'd bung it in — just a bit of levity :) No doubt, it'll put a few noses out of joint, so, if you're easily offended, don't read it. — Invalid Link Removed
 
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I don't necessarily agree or disagree with all the subject matter in this article. But it's on topic so I thought I'd bung it in — just a bit of levity :) No doubt, it'll put a few noses out of joint, so, if you're easily offended, don't read it. — Invalid Link Removed

I loved this article. Comfort that I am on the right track to mediocrity! Whew, I feel better. Particularly since it emphasizes the need to avoid transcribing. Something I have avoided like the plague.

I have to confess, I've fallen into the play along and buying transcriptions track. I love to buy music, it seems. But that was so I could make up lead sheets for the band fast, given limited time. What got me out of it was transcribing my own melodies and compositions. After a few of those, I was able to transcribe other people's stuff better.

I do have this ongoing tension though, between excellence and practicality. Is all this really good advice for the person who may have to choose between slow, agonizing transcription, and their marriage? Their full time career? Their busy gigging organization they lead? Your school work as a student?

In my case, I've had to figure out how to complete a four terminal degrees, a certification,., lead a non-profit, my full time work, care for a disabled family member, keep a busy set of bands working, plus be a good husband. I don't have the luxury of a day to sit down and fight with transcribing. Notwithstanding its many benefits (I've experienced them -- better ear, deeper understanding, and most of all, better reading!)

I did have vacation a while back, and it took me the better part of a work day to transcribe a for Today's Jazz Book. Very satisfying to hear a pro piano player play off the chart successfully, but it sure required a full day's worth of concentration and shutting out distractions. I can't do that even once a month it seems.

The advice in the article is great, (if not backhanded), but most of the suggestions are VERY time consuming. And in my mind, for people pursuing excellence. So, if your objectives are to really get it, then it's worth the sacrifice, but if you want to just get out there and play, many of the suggestions in the article are, IMHO, for vacation, down time, and periods of unemployment. Or retirement. I hope to pursue these things in retirement, definitely....but not now.

I see the advice above as sound, and funny to read. I am sure we can all see ourselves in it to some extent (I hope I'm not alone).
 
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Here are the guts of the article:

Mediocre tip #1: Avoid transcribing at all costs:

PF -- at one time, Yes!

Mediocre tip #2: Always learn tunes from fake books
Always!

Mediocre tip #3: Don’t ever learn lines
I'm always ripping off other people's stuff, and then playing it backwards and upside down.

Mediocre tip #4: Don’t ever learn anything in all keys
Only when necessary -- Summertime, Autumn Leaves

Mediocre tip #5: Don’t waste your time on easy tunes

Constantly on the lookout for easy tunes __ jody grind, comin' home baby, footprints, Mr. P.C., Watermelon Man, Killer Joe. Easy is good.

Mediocre tip #6: Never play over the original changes
I always do this and fight the guys who want to mess with them.

Mediocre tip #7: Ear training. Who needs it?

Everyone needs it, but no time for it. Ear training happens when I get lost in songs.

Mediocre tip #8: If you’re not getting the results you want, get new equipment

Terrible advice. I never buy equipment to get the results I want, except once. Don't go there. It worked.

Mediocre tip #9: Work on scales and arpeggios until you’re blue in the face

I'm working on these things to create my own melodies and riffs so I sound different. The more weird intervals, surprise endings for phrases within the context of these scales and arpeggios, the better!

Mediocre tip #10: Only do the minimum amount of work

Excellent advice when your wife is threatening to leave you and your children don't recognize you because you are never home. Or posting on talkbass.

Mediocre tip #11: Don’t worry about chord progressions

Progressions are fascinating so I am always trying to understand them and invent my own - but for my own compositions, not for existing standards.

Mediocre tip #12: Never ever play with a metronome
Whoops. I only do it when I know a passage I have to play, normally a set line in a song, is off time.

Mediocre tip #13: Always use play-alongs
Yep, Guilty as charged.

Mediocre tip #14: Learn as many tunes as you can

Only if the job requires it. But I do like to earning thoroughly new songs after the old one gets stale, or I need to do it to hold a gig.

You can be mediocre!
having a goal to be mediocre pays off immediately
 
I'm kind of lost.
A comping bass line IS the same as soloing?

No problem. Yes, it is. We’re talking jazz here right? Waking bass lines, etc..

Let’s look at one chord. An A-7.

As the bassist what four quarter notes would you most likely play? A C E G. Right? You’d probably remove one of those notes in favor of a targeting note to voice lead to the next chord.

Ok. The soloist. Eighth notes are typical. Same chord. A-7. What notes will he play? Fundamentally, as far a harmony goes the soloists job is no different than the bassists. They want to establish tonality just as much as the bassist. Yes, they can go “outside” more than the bassist, (which is due to the range the instrument plays in - instruments that play in the higher ranges can get away with more outside playing because the dissonant higher frequencies of the instrument are less noticed by the ear - I can explain further if you like).

So the soloist will favor the same four notes - A C E G. But they need twice as many notes because they’re playing eighths. So they’ll use scales or arpeggios to complete the phrase.

Setting aside rhythm for a moment, every member of an ensemble or band has the same job for the most part. And that job is to make the harmony clear to the listener. And in doing that we all use the same devices - arpeggios, scales, voice leading, voicing, etc.

But you’ll notice in almost all music, the lower frequency instruments are generally asked to play half, quarter and eighth notes while higher frequency instruments play quarter, eighths and sixteenths. Obviously I’m generalizing, but the point that it leads to is that in tonal jazz music, every instruments harmonic role is basically the same.

The reason I talk about this, is because I’ve talked to a lot of bassists who felt that soloing was like a foreign language. And I certainly understand.

Think about this. When saxophone players first start lessons what are they practicing? Scales. Lots and lots of scales. After a couple of years soloing is their native language. But bassists? We’re often told to play the root of a chord and to “groove.” There’s nothing wrong with that but IMO, if a bassist wants to become a good functioning soloist, I think it a good idea to understand how the frequency range and size of the instrument affects the role of the bassist (and the expectations that go along with that), that the bassist generally has a unique rhythmic responsibility, but (and this is the key), as far as harmony is concerned, all instruments capable of harmony and melody have the same basic function - to make the harmony clear to the listener.

Hope that helped clear some things up. Try looking at other examples of Music written for the bass. Probably the most obvious would be to look at orchestral scores. Compare the double bass parts to the violins, the trombones and horns, and even the timpani. You’ll find the role of the bassist is often the same as the instruments that play the upper voices. It you’ll also see where the bass is left out or used in a more rhythmic role.

To the basic point I stared with. A good walking bass line isn’t much different than the guitarists or sax players solos. Everyone is dealing with harmony, just using different rhythmic values. And due to frequency, each instrument will focus on certain parts of a chord.

This kind of thinking can help free the mind of the bassist completely from the “play the root and groove” training that many of us have been through, that often leads to the “soloing as a second language” syndrome.

Regards,
Steve Steele
 
No problem. Yes, it is. We’re talking jazz here right? Waking bass lines, etc..

Let’s look at one chord. An A-7.

As the bassist what four quarter notes would you most likely play? A C E G. Right? You’d probably remove one of those notes in favor of a targeting note to voice lead to the next chord.

Ok. The soloist. Eighth notes are typical. Same chord. A-7. What notes will he play? Fundamentally, as far a harmony goes the soloists job is no different than the bassists. They want to establish tonality just as much as the bassist. Yes, they can go “outside” more than the bassist, (which is due to the range the instrument plays in - instruments that play in the higher ranges can get away with more outside playing because the dissonant higher frequencies of the instrument are less noticed by the ear - I can explain further if you like).

So the soloist will favor the same four notes - A C E G. But they need twice as many notes because they’re playing eighths. So they’ll use scales or arpeggios to complete the phrase.

Setting aside rhythm for a moment, every member of an ensemble or band has the same job for the most part. And that job is to make the harmony clear to the listener. And in doing that we all use the same devices - arpeggios, scales, voice leading, voicing, etc.

But you’ll notice in almost all music, the lower frequency instruments are generally asked to play half, quarter and eighth notes while higher frequency instruments play quarter, eighths and sixteenths. Obviously I’m generalizing, but the point that it leads to is that in tonal jazz music, every instruments harmonic role is basically the same.

The reason I talk about this, is because I’ve talked to a lot of bassists who felt that soloing was like a foreign language. And I certainly understand.

Think about this. When saxophone players first start lessons what are they practicing? Scales. Lots and lots of scales. After a couple of years soloing is their native language. But bassists? We’re often told to play the root of a chord and to “groove.” There’s nothing wrong with that but IMO, if a bassist wants to become a good functioning soloist, I think it a good idea to understand how the frequency range and size of the instrument affects the role of the bassist (and the expectations that go along with that), that the bassist generally has a unique rhythmic responsibility, but (and this is the key), as far as harmony is concerned, all instruments capable of harmony and melody have the same basic function - to make the harmony clear to the listener.

Hope that helped clear some things up. Try looking at other examples of Music written for the bass. Probably the most obvious would be to look at orchestral scores. Compare the double bass parts to the violins, the trombones and horns, and even the timpani. You’ll find the role of the bassist is often the same as the instruments that play the upper voices. It you’ll also see where the bass is left out or used in a more rhythmic role.

To the basic point I stared with. A good walking bass line isn’t much different than the guitarists or sax players solos. Everyone is dealing with harmony, just using different rhythmic values. And due to frequency, each instrument will focus on certain parts of a chord.

This kind of thinking can help free the mind of the bassist completely from the “play the root and groove” training that many of us have been through, that often leads to the “soloing as a second language” syndrome.

Regards,
Steve Steele

Hey, I like your vision. You must have a lot of experience!
Here is my amateur bass player’s (who doesn’t solo) thoughts about that Amin7 chord.
It’s not enough information about it .
Is it just one measure or two, or more?
What are other chords, a/any chord progression, or it’s some modal music?
Anyway, my intro phrase would start at the second swing 8th note on Beat 1 as
B D F# E G Eb D (let’s say, all swing eights) and so on.
But it’s just me, a beginner musician
 
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Not really. Time isn't the answer, necessarily.

Many of us have learned the English language to varying degrees. But, just because one might have a large vocabulary doesn't guarantee that you can be a great orator.

Unfortunately starting on this improv journey at a late-age will be a severe obstacle.

Successful concert violinists usually start at age 4-5.

& modern concert violinists don't improve much.

EDIT: disregard the spellcheck & swap improv for improve
 
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But someone somewhere must have come up with it first ... how did that guy did it without anyone to steal ???

I still think that licks are good for building vocabulary but ultimatly you just want to follow your imagination. Sing what you are doing. Allow yourself to make mistake. Practice improvisation no time to think just do.

One way is to sing the lyrics - what do they mean to you? Now how would you communicate that with your instrument? Interpreting a lyric slightly differently can lead you to several different ideas you want to express.
 
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Hey, I like your vision. You must have a lot of experience!
Here is my amateur bass player’s (who doesn’t solo) thoughts about that Amin7 chord.
It’s not enough information about it .
Is it just one measure or two, or more?
What are other chords, a/any chord progression, or it’s some modal music?
Anyway, my intro phrase would start at the second swing 8th note on Beat 1 as
B D F# E G Eb D (let’s say, all swing eights) and so on.
But it’s just me, a beginner musician

I want to make sure I was clear in answering your original question. You asked, “A comping bass line IS the same as soloing?”

(Edit: This turned out to be a long reply. But I believe I answered your question with a few examples that you can check for yourself).

For the sake of clarity let’s leave style, rhythm and phrasing out of the conversation for now. My comments are in regards to function. In tonal music, once you understand function you understand everything.

I’d be glad to answer any questions. Perhaps it would be best if you or I picked a tune, performed some analysis and revealed function.

Theory wise, I come from the school of Heinrich Schenker, Arnold Schoenberg, Dan Haerle and my old UNT professor, Dr Kevin Korsyn. Jeff Berlin was my main jazz/fusion influence as far as applying music theory to the bass.

Check out Dan Haerle’s The Jazz Language, Arnold Schoenberg’s Structual Functions of Harmony, Fux’s The Study of Counterpoint, Harmony and Voice Leading by Aldwell and Schachter, Counterpoint in Composition by Salzer and Schachter and maybe look at Tom Pankhusrt’s Guide to Schenkerian Analysis website. His website is a good as any text written on the subject and he avoids the indecipherable and unnecessary “academic speak” that plagues so many texts.

What they all have in common is how they emphasize function.

I do a lot of analysis (mostly for my students these days or for upcoming conducting gigs).

I’m planning a new series of videos on my YouTube channel. The goal is to perform function and reduction type analysis to about 100 Bach Chorales and 100 Real Book tunes. Maybe that’s something you might be interested in. My analysis technique is not your typical roman numeral anayisis. What I do is based primarily on species counterpoint, and functional harmony. I think a lot of high school and freshman college music theory teachers teach the subject completely wrong. Unfortunately many theory teachers are failed composers. Music theory, IMO is the process of reverse engineering compositions. If you’re a failed composer, you have no business teaching music theory. (By “failed” I don’t mean they failed at being a careered composer, I mean many theory teachers can’t and don’t compose. Things have changed for the better over the past 10 - 15 years as a lot of energetic “Schenkerians” have replaced the previous generation.

Example: Freshman Music Theory is generally a lot of “part writing” rules for vertical chord to chord Bach style composing. Did Bach use part writing rules to harmonize his Chorales?

No. He didn’t.

This is how Bach wrote Chorales. He was given a melody and his job was to write the bass, tenor and alto parts that were sung by the boys/men’s choir.

It’s important to realize that Bach already had the soprano voice, and that he used the principles of Species Counterpoint to write a bass voice and then the tenor and alto voices. He worked horizontally, not vertically.

Why am I telling you this? What does this have to do with jazz soloing for bassists?

Bach’s bass voice was as important and melodic as the soprano voice. They were nearly identical (with some functional exceptions). This still applies today for jazz bass players. A walking bass line is fundamentally the same as a Sax player’s solo (with some functional exceptions).

What this means for the OP is that if he understands how to walk a swing bass line, then he already has the knowledge to solo. He just needs to turn quarter notes into eighth notes. Those extra four notes are found in the scale and arpeggios of the tonality (including all the substituting and borrowing one can think of).

I only mentioned a single ii V I and in a later post, a single chord because about 50-60% of what one needs to know to understand how to solo is contained in that single cadence. Everything after that is just substitution and borrowing which is fairly easy. Even difficult tonal harmony has a logical thread back to the simple cadence.

Phrasing is just singing.
Rhythm is mostly intuitive.
Counterpoint and harmonic function is where the student and pro alike should focus a good deal of their studies.

Regards,
Steve Steele
 
Counterpoint and harmonic function is where the student and pro alike should focus a good deal of their studies.

Thank you for your extensive comment. Your learning material/books/tutorials just overwhelmed me. I truly believe that you highly educated and have a lot of experience.
You asked a question what notes should you play with Amin7 and I answered with my aural vision. Yes, some notes are and should be the same for the bass guitar as a comping instrument and as a "soloing" instrument but I will always see the difference in the ROLE those notes are playing while "walking" and while soloing.
I agree with everything you said - I just have a different "vision" of my soloing notes, their sounds in the background of that Amin7.
 
Mediocre tip #12: Never ever play with a metronome
Whoops. I only do it when I know a passage I have to play, normally a set line in a song, is off time.

My personal expression and my personal (and very strong) belief - Life is too short to be wasted without a metronome!
In order to be diplomatic to my TB colleagues and to some very PRO bass players (that I respect) I would tacitly agree with that, "OK, while you are looking for those notes, don't use the metronome", but...
Once again, if I'm noodling - I'm using the metronome. (In my left shirt pocket from itunes.).
If I'm playing scales, their variations, arpeggios, various derivatives of various modes in various positions, etc...- my click is with me.
P.S. From now on, I will stop being cagey to all those TB members who are proudly wearing that "I-don't-need-the-metronome" badge.
 
This thread was started by a guy who asked the same general question I had (have), "That sounds so nice...What the hell notes are they playing?" There have been many excellent approaches to answer that question here. They are all valid. Let me give some thoughts.

First, anything you can say to explain or describe "jazz" can be applied to music as a whole. Imagination, nuances, technique, all the diff. variances of "feeling", etc. I know we have to use categories to communicate more easily to each other, but it is a trap too. If you suggest someone go hear a group, the person may say, "Oh, I hate jazz" because they have a mind set what jazz is. I believe, having heard from some of the best, that you are doing yourself a disservice by not taking it all in. When I heard one guy was studying violin passages to improve his bass playing, I thought about it. So I learned the basic "Come Together" line even though I never cared much for the Beatles. Having played it many ways with many feelings and slowly adding my own junk, now I better understand how talented those English Bugs were. Boom. Education. The broader the study, the broader the student.

So then I think about my "junk" I added. It came from just trying out combos of notes that sound "right together" and some that don't (on purpose). That makes up a "new pattern" I can add to my repertoire. Do I know what scale of chord it is? At least not at first. It's just new "junk" to add to the old. Sooner or later the junk adds up and you find yourself doing pieces and parts together and you don't even realize it is a solo. And maybe you practice it over and over. But I once saw an autistic boy who explained his vision of bass and his pictures of patterns were different than most. Not "wrong", just different. It got him to a high level that another person may get to using typical music theory. Who cares? Did he sound right? He cooked !!!

My last comment reaches further. If we are so quick to categorize music and stereotype it (pun intended), we can do that with people too. Be aware of labels and categories. A sad ballad can become a driving funk dance tune or a rap song, a country song if you can imagine it.

The point is, it's ALL good. Study anything and everything. Study it from all angles. Don't practice...play. The more time in, the more sound out. A solo is an advanced expression of what you have learned. I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to all.
 
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True. But, if you don't start around age 4, you will likely not be competitive - improvising or not. One needs to absorb the language very early.

Best of luck to those (i.e., Old Dogs) starting in their teens and beyond.

+1 We're making the same point. An adult learner won't learn as quickly as when they were a child; that doesn't mean an adult shouldn't try to learn, improvement can be made.

But even a classically trained adult musician shouldn't expect to be able to improv as well as Louis Armstrong, JS Bach or WA Mozart.

EDIT: Which is not faint praise - even the few people who have been focused for a lifetime on music improv won't be as good as some of the greats. They may not even be the best of their generation.
 
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Which is not faint praise - even the few people who have been focused for a lifetime on music improv won't be as good as some of the greats. They may not even be the best of their generation.

A sad but a very true statement. :sour:

An adult learner won't learn as quickly as when they were a child; that doesn't mean an adult shouldn't try to learn, improvement can be made.

Another sad but a very true statement. :crying:

But...

There are so many resources for a beginner to start learning improvisation.
I would start with some very simple harmonically/melodically songs and
1. ANALYZE the chords/chord progressions (simple),
2. Find the notes of the melody, learn it,
3. Apply some Bergonzi's methods for a true beginner,
and so on...

My pet peeve with some of the commentators is this.
They post examples of the BEST soloists for a BEGINNER to listen and TRANSCRIBE(!).

I would like to see how Victor Wooten (who had picked up the bass at 6) soloed after 6 months of playing the bass.
It would provide me with some assurance that even Victor was not such a superb improvisation specialist at the beginning.
 
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But even a classically trained adult musician shouldn't expect to be able to improv as well as Louis Armstrong, JS Bach or WA Mozart.

That's such a weird self-defeating definition of success. Most of us have goals like having a good time, learning interesting stuff, expressing ourselves, reaching some like-minded people.... We're not going to give up because we don't expect to be household names.
 
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That's such a weird self-defeating definition of success. Most of have goals like having a good time, learning interesting stuff, expressing ourselves, reaching some like-minded people.... We're not going to give up because we don't expect to be household names.

+1. That's my point - adult learners can improve. Use it or lose it.

EDIT: If I didn't think adults could learn, then why am I spending time on a learning to improv thread? I wouldn't have picked up a bass.
 
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