Jazz soloing technique

[Whousedtoplay]

I know everyone is not Bill Evans, but when I hear statements like yours, it just sounds like someone looking for an escape hatch

Yes, indeed, and here is why.

The same musician likes or dislikes this or that solo, and that musician has some reasons why.
Some like more technical "stuff", some like more melodious "stuff", some are going "crazy" about the rhythmic aspect of someone's solo, etc...
I know that person is not Bill Evans, but by analyzing and incorporating the "good stuff" from other musicians' solos would help that person (and a lot).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

"Cool lines" just don't come out of me easily and my skill basic bass skill level really isn;t good enough to produce some of the "cool" things I hear.

If you hear and understand those "cool" things when others are playing, then...
You are just "looking for any excuse" not to succeed, as Spin Doctor said.
And, YES, I know that we don't have enough time. Once upon a time, I was able to make living as a playing musician.
I've had that blessed time.
Now, I savor each minute spent with my JB. Times have changed, and I must value my time while I can to be with Music, with my instrument.

It doesn't help that my KB and guitarist (and occasional sax) are outstanding soloists and even my mediocre worked out lines don't compare to them.

Please, don't forget that the grass is always greener on the other side, and playing solos/soloing on the bass guitar is different from playing solos on the Sax or KB.

 

[Spin Doctor]

So as it turns out, it's obviously a huge topic. So many different opinions, ideas and strategies. My experience with it is that it just takes time and you need a definite direction. I remember talking to my teacher about my solos and how they pretty much just sucked and he'd just say, in that Yoda way that he has, "you simply haven't done it enough...".

Once you have some information or ideas to work on, you just have to keep working it. Then you just move on to the next thing. Eventually you will have worked on enough stuff that you can put it together in the way that you see it and it starts to happen. The stuff you've worked on simply shows up in your playing.

In my case, most of it is not great, but some I can actually stand to listen to more than once. I tried to transcribe one of my own solos once and found that I had played a lick in a recording that I simply couldn't reproduce. I don't know where it even came from. It wasn't anything super great, just a little harmonics effect type thing, but I wanted to be able to do it when I wanted but it just wasn't happening.

 

[Pbassmanca]

This is a cool thread. I love jazz, and really enjoy listening to funky 70's stuff like The Crusaders, Idris Muhammad, Donald Byrd, Chuck Mangione, Grover Washington etc. I've also recently discovered Ahmad Jamal who straight up blows my mind. I would love to start a group covering this material and others, which probably wouldn't be a problem for me chops wise but as soon as it comes to solos, YIKES I'm definitely not there! I'll have to pay attention to this thread to try and glean some wisdom in this respect....

 

[gtrimprov]

And another thing...
The best short piece of advice I ever heard on jazz soloing was said by Miles Davis to a sideman:
"Don't finish your idea!"

 

[dexter3d]

Bass solos are difficult, because there's usually no one else xcept drums and some faint comping to accompany you. You can't do one note bends for the entire bar etc like on a guitar - you always have to give listeners a clue about the flow of the chord changes. Otherwise, it will sound crappy and disconnected. In this connection, practicing with a play along that has bass in it is a mistake. It will sound nice at home, but in live situation you will not have another bass to back you up during soloing.

 

[sbergman123]

I really dig steve swallow’s chromatic approaches as well.

 

[sbergman123]

you always have to give listeners a clue about the flow of the chord changes.

Dropping the root on the 1 and using the rest of the beats in the measure creatively always sounded like the easiest way to acheive that. However once one learns to do that it is time to break the mold. Like fo instance - Take joe pass’ view of umm ‘chordal melody’ was it? By stacking the root on top. Wow that changes our approaches to improvising not to mention HOW we play in general. I hope that makes some kind of sense. The list goes ever on but all comes down to experimenting, listening with intent using good ideas from others in your own style but not copying etc etc ...

 

[tommyttoy]

I watch players soloing some jazz sounding chops, I solo but never can create the sound, what scales are being used in a jazz solo.
Thanks

Hey Keith, there's a great app called "iReal Pro" which has a gazillion chord charts for standards (jazz and more). Among the many cool features it has is the app's ability to play a backing track of a rhythm section (piano, drums, bass, typically) so you can play over it. Even cooler, as the track plays it displays all the various scales you could use over the chord being played at that moment. I typically will stop the song on a given measure, swipe through the suggested scales, get familiar with one, then try it over the chord changes to see what "sounds good." It's a little bit of a scatter shot approach, but the more you do it, the more you'll become familiar with the flavors of the different scales and decide which you like to use, ultimately coming up with your own signature soloing "accent." Good luck!

 

[otherJocko]

You don't have to know anything at all about music theory in order to play music, and there's a lot of cats who don't. But it sure does help.

For me, there are a couple of things that made it much easier to improvise over chord changes:

1) Memorize every note on your fretboard. Be able to play a note absolutely anywhere and name it correctly.

2) In jazz music expect that when the chord changes, the key changes. So memorize all 12 keys and memorize the notes that are in those keys. In a lot of rock and blues music there is a central key and a lot of times you can get away with just knowing that one scale and improvising with that, but on most jazz tunes that's not gonna work.

3) Practice playing over patterns. 2-5-1 is the most common progression so download IReal Pro and program in the chords for 2-5-1 in every key. Pick a key and practice playing over them.

At the end of the day it's all just pattern recognition. The more you play - and listen to changes - the better you're gonna get at recognizing and playing over the changes. If you focus on actively listening and keep consistent with your practice, it will come to you.

"In jazz music expect that when the chord changes, the key changes." - I may be missing your point, but it sounds like you're saying every chord is the one-chord of its own key. Yes? Years ago I wrote a tune for a band I was in, a sort of samba thingy pretty much diatonic in Db. We ran it, everyone was ok with it, and I said ok, who wants to do a solo? All the guys who were studying "jazz improv" at the local university were like "Oh no, too many changes..." Me: "It's just Db." "How do we figure out what chord scales we're supposed to do" "Just play in Db." "You write hard tunes..." Oooh that last one hurt!

 

[Steve Steele]

I watch players soloing some jazz sounding chops, I solo but never can create the sound, what scales are being used in a jazz solo.
Thanks

Mushroo gave good advice. Let me add this.

Are you good at walking bass lines through jazz chord progressions? If so, you’re halfway there. (If not just play 1 3 5 b5 root of next chord, repeat). In essence a walking bass line in quarter notes serves about the same goal as a soloist’s playing eighth note... almost.

Take a simple ii-V-I (A-7 D7 Gmaj7) and play a typical bass line. |A C E Eb| D F# A Ab| G / / /|

Now we just need eighth notes. You could either use some notes from Dorian, Mixolydian and Ionian (or Lydian). Or you could use arpeggios. Or both.

Try this.

| c a c e g b a g | f# e d c# c b f# a | g |

Notice I put the chord tones on the down beats in the A minor first measure (c, c, g, a) and again in the D7 second measure, (f# d c f#). Just like in a bass line I use a half step to target the D7 (the g to f#), which helps the ear hear the voice leading and the changes. (Btw, the d c# c part of that lick is the so called bebop scale. You need the c# so that only D7 chord tones land on the down beats. Easy right?)

Jeff Berlin once told me something a long time ago that I’ll never forget. He said, “If you’re doing a solo and the band decides to get up and leave you on stage by yourself, the audience should still hear the chord changes.” Brilliant! And it’s actually very easy. Just do what I just did, a lot. At least for awhile.

Basically I’m just playing an eighth note version of what I might play as bassist.

One more. Let’s assume the same progression but this time it’s |A-7 D7|G

A-7 gets two beats, the D7 gets two and the G gets two or four (doesn’t matter).

Look how super simple this first example is.

| a b c d e f# g a | b

Landing on B for the Gmaj7 is nice.

Or..

| a c e g f# e d c | b

The first four notes (a c e g) are an A-7 arpeggio. The next four are the D Mixolydian scale starting on D7’s 3rd (f#), which walks down the scale (e d c), which targets the Gmaj7s 3rd (b).

Simple. Players do this ALL NIGHT LONG!!!

Of course we can start making use of the extensions (9th, 11th or #11th and the 13th), and with dominant, diminished and altered dominant chords especially we can use variety of scales (whole tone, super locrian, diminished 1/2-whole step version, Lydian b7, etc etc..). But don’t start there. And later on you “key off” just the minor chords, or just the dominant chords. That’s another topic though.

Take simple tunes. Yes, Autumn Leaves.(sorry). Write a simple but functional bass line. Then make it an eighth note solo by using arpeggios and scale tones that put the chord tones on the down beats and target the next chord. Instant solo!

You could solo like this for months at gigs and people will think you’re awesome. Once you’re comfortable at that then learn you’re minor ii half dim-Valt-i progressions.

I was fortunate to study with the great Dan Hearle. So, don’t listen to me. Go to his website danhaerle.com go to the Books link and straight to the Digital II-V-I Patterns Page and play, play, play. They’re easy and they are patterns you’ve heard every sax player play and you’ll have them under your fingers in no time.

Just remember to apply them to Real Book tunes! That’s key!

Regards,
Steve Steele

 

[phillipkregg]

"In jazz music expect that when the chord changes, the key changes." - I may be missing your point, but it sounds like you're saying every chord is the one-chord of its own key. Yes? Years ago I wrote a tune for a band I was in, a sort of samba thingy pretty much diatonic in Db. We ran it, everyone was ok with it, and I said ok, who wants to do a solo? All the guys who were studying "jazz improv" at the local university were like "Oh no, too many changes..." Me: "It's just Db." "How do we figure out what chord scales we're supposed to do" "Just play in Db." "You write hard tunes..." Oooh that last one hurt!

It really all depends on the particular tune, but to play it safe, it's best to assume that if you see an unusual pattern coming up it's going to be a key change.

For instance, the song "Bluesette" is in the key of Bb. It starts with a BbMaj7 chord, then an Amin7b5. So far no suprises, everything is diatonic (in the same key).

But the next chord is a D7 - which contains an F#, which isn't a part of the key of Bb - so it's changed to the key of D7 (which is a dominant 7 chord in the key of G).

The song also contains a Dbmin7 chord and a CbMaj7 chord - none of which are in the key of Bb. On each of those chords you are changing keys.

It helps to be able to spot patterns like a 2-5-1 chord progression which happens often in jazz. That pattern will usually mean you stay in the same key for those particular changes.

When I'm playing a jazz tune, I don't really pay much attention to the key of the song. I focus on what chord is coming up next, because that's the only thing that matters. It may or may not have anything to do with the key of the song. But the key will help you determine the pattern of 2-5-1 changes to look for, although the 2-5-1 changes don't have to match the key of the song either - they are often in another key as well.

 

[Steve Steele]

"In jazz music expect that when the chord changes, the key changes." - I may be missing your point, but it sounds like you're saying every chord is the one-chord of its own key. Yes?

No. In Autumn Leaves how do you know the Cmaj7 is not the I chord? Hmm? Because of FUNCTION. Function is the almighty in tonal music.

You must understand the nature of cadences. In turn you must understand the nature of a ii V I. What’s the function of each chord?

Remember this. Schenker might say understand cadences and you understand all of music. A cadence has four positions or four functions.

a variant of I followed by a sub-dominant, then a dominant, then the tonic. Like this..

| vi | ii or IV | V | I ||

This all goes back to Bach. Turns out to be the must popular chord progression ever used. Bach started many pieces with a cadence before development.

Let’s look. Correct voicing and connecting of chords IS the same as soloing. How would I resolve the A-7 to the D7? In other words which notes of one should connect to the next.

D5 means down a 5th. 1/2 step means via half step motion. Same means same note.

A-7 D7 Gmaj7
G 1/2 F# Same F#
E Down5 A Down5 D
C Same C 1/2 B
A Down5 D Down5 G

Notice the 3rd (c) of the A-7 chord connects to the 7th of the D7 chord. Actually they’re both C. The 7th of the A-7 chord G connects to the F# of the D7 chord.

Now play just that on your bass (either 5th fret or 17th) as two chords. A perfect 4th to a dim5th.

C C
G F#


Notice how you here the A-7 to D7 workout even playing the roots or 5ths?

Ok, now function.

In the major scale where do the minor 7th chords exsist? The ii, iii, and the vi. We’ll just use the ii for now.

In the major scale where does the dominant chord exsist? On the V chord obviously (not talking secondary dominants yet).

And the maj7th chords? The I and IV. For now I is more likely.

Now we have a ii V I

In the key of C that D-7 G7 CMaj7.

G7s function is to resolve. It wants to resolve. It has a dissonance (tritone) within the chord screaming out to resolve. There are a number of places it could go but let’s do the obvious.

Wanna guess?

Yes, CMaj7. Why? Because of the pull of the voice leading! Here’s how our ears expect the notes to move.
D can move to E or other.
B. Stays on B
F# goes to G - up a 1/2 step
G goes to C - down a 5th

That’s a simple example. But however chromatic you want to get, there is a logical voicing that you can use to convince the ear that it’s right.

To your question. Is the new I a new key? Was the I chord established so many times that the melody was phrased over it multiple times? Then yes.

Was it part of a ii V I that went to another ii V I? Then no. It wasn’t established. Think of it as a secondary I chord (I just made that up). Schoenberg would say that you just borrowed from another region. Yes, it’s just borrowing.

Got a tune in mind you want a specific answer to? I’d be glad to break it down for you.

Regards,
Steve Steele

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Correct voicing and connecting of chords IS the same as soloing. How would I resolve the A-7 to the D7? In other words which notes of one should connect to the next.

I'm kind of lost.
A comping bass line IS the same as soloing?

 

[Tom Bomb]

Going from strength to strength, folks. Much appreciated. The thread's a ripper.

A great improvisor, perhaps one of the greatest, Miles Davis, I believe, once or twice, expressed distress when talking about applause during a tune. Quite rightly, he wanted us to hear the beginnings and endings of things too, and sometimes even the middles, and frustratingly, we were drowning out all that subtle expressive definition with our bellowing and our slapping of slabs of meat together, en masse — my words. Miles was more sharp and to-the-point.

And the point being, there's a depth there too, potentially, for even the tiniest of elements, like silence and space and breath, to deliver up meaning. And, he was defending his position, as a soloist, not criticizing audiences. Obviously, we missed the point. Ever heard a trumpet say, "So What"?

 

[PauFerro]

I think some people is assuming here that a scale is an ascending or descending pattern of consecutive notes.
Dont think so...
Is just a group of notes that matches a tonality and you can use it the way you want, melodicaly and rythmically.
How can a scale be "bad" for approaching jazz improvisation?
Dont understand that point of view.

Pat metheny indicated they are not really scales, just to think of them as "available notes". I do get how some scales are "bad" though. If in using the notes from the scale in a vertical pattern for example, you hit tension notes on the 1st and 3rd beat of the bar, you will sound like your solo doesn't match the harmonic structure of the song. For me, a scale is simply a way of putting general structure on the harmonic elements of the song. And you don't always think of all the available notes as "scales". They can also be viewed as arpeggios. One thing that really enlightened me was Pat Metheny said 50% of what he plays are arpeggios! So, he not only thinks in terms of scales and available notes, he is also thinking in terms of chords and inversions.

 

[PauFerro]

I'm kind of lost.
A comping bass line IS the same as soloing?

I will say yes -- provided you aren't reading a pre-written bassline. But it's simpler rythmically and in my view, harmonically. Because in comping as a bassist you are really laying down the basic harmonic structure of the song so the rest of the band can go free over it. Comping a bass line also simpler melodically since with mostly quarter notes in jazz, you don't have the same burden as when creating a more intricate solo. There are still lots of opportunities to be melodic, but I find the more simplistic rythmns you're playing makes it easier.

 

[mrcbass]

You are just "looking for any excuse" not to succeed, as Spin Doctor said.

Wow. Assume much? I have no idea how you are qualified to have any clue about my approach to learning or what comes easy. Just what am I looking for an excuse for? You must work for the media or something - based on this post, you're really good at taking a few words out of context and using them to attack someone. I took Spin's comment as a generalization; not as a dig at me personally. And why? Because I believe that soling comes easier to some than to others? If you've been reading the whole thread, you'll see that I've been one of those pushing the "hard work" and "study" path to the OP.

 

[jaggedstudio]

I watch players soloing some jazz sounding chops, I solo but never can create the sound, what scales are being used in a jazz solo.
Thanks

I watch players soloing some jazz sounding chops, I solo but never can create the sound, what scales are being used in a jazz solo.
Thanks

Actually Keith, it helps to know scales, chords, and how they are related via theory and harmony . It's a lifelong journey - I've been playing for over 50 years and I'm still learning new things when it comes to jazz improv. Listen to bass players like Scott LaFaro, Ray Brown, Eddie Gomez just to name a few. They and others like them, and there are many, know the theory and harmony behind the tunes they solo on. Try to study with a teacher that also knows about theory and harmony, that's a good route to take as well. Good luck !

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I've been one of those pushing the "hard work" and "study" path to the OP.

And you are absolutely correct.
You've mentioned that your KB and Sax players are very good at soloing.
From my experience, sometimes on stage with all that excitement going on, everything sounds so good, so "cool" - just perfect, but...
If I record it and then listen to it, I can find some "not very cool" spots.
I know that "soloing improvisation" is slightly instrument-oriented - what sounds good on the sax does not always good for the bass, but try to record your KB and/or Sax players and analyze their rhythmic note selection during solos.