Classy. A little introspection might be in order, perhaps?
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Jeff Berlin apology
- Thread starter db59
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Classy. A little introspection might be in order, perhaps?
sort of avoided chiming in here . . . but
someone suggested that it's jeff's virtuosity that piques people's ire. in my case, no. i've known and have played with virtuoso players and many of them are sweethearts. for me, it's more about how he's manifested himself in the world. maybe miles could get away with it . . .
i'm one of those people who wanted to see if jeff would only apologize to "important people" (that he needed to make peace with for the sake of his career) or the myriad other people he has demeaned and so forth over the last couple decades. my first taste of that was on the old "the bottom line" list and i've pretty much ignored him since then.
so yeah, he kind of did apologize in today's video, but also spent a lot of time talking about bailey and wooten, who seem to be very much on his mind in this process.
he also kinda latched on to his being here for the listener as a teacher and a "moderator" . . . to me this gets to a core issue—he thinks we *need to/should* hear what he's got to say. well, probably not all of us.
fwiw, probably 0.0000000009% of the world's population even know who he is (or cares).
which is still better than the 0.0000000001% who might care about me.
in any event, one hopes that he finds some peace in all of this.
someone suggested that it's jeff's virtuosity that piques people's ire. in my case, no. i've known and have played with virtuoso players and many of them are sweethearts. for me, it's more about how he's manifested himself in the world. maybe miles could get away with it . . .
i'm one of those people who wanted to see if jeff would only apologize to "important people" (that he needed to make peace with for the sake of his career) or the myriad other people he has demeaned and so forth over the last couple decades. my first taste of that was on the old "the bottom line" list and i've pretty much ignored him since then.
so yeah, he kind of did apologize in today's video, but also spent a lot of time talking about bailey and wooten, who seem to be very much on his mind in this process.
he also kinda latched on to his being here for the listener as a teacher and a "moderator" . . . to me this gets to a core issue—he thinks we *need to/should* hear what he's got to say. well, probably not all of us.
fwiw, probably 0.0000000009% of the world's population even know who he is (or cares).
which is still better than the 0.0000000001% who might care about me.
in any event, one hopes that he finds some peace in all of this.
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Some people wake up looking to be offended.
Back on topic. Some higher functioning people lack some of the simple social graces that we take for granted, Jeff admitted in the past he had some issues. I think most of us have said and done sone dumb stuff, I know I have. I think it's a positive move on his part whatever his motivation.
Benjamin Earl
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- Dec 31, 2008
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I'm surprised he acknowledged that it was wrong to belittle bassists who find value in methods other than his own. Why would I limit myself? I try to embrace others' diversity and learn from their unique experiences.
I'd apologize to Steve Bailey and Victor Wooten by calling them. If I wanted publicity out of it, I'd put it on Facebook. But that's just me.
He maybe did call them (assuming he has their phone numbers). But I like the idea of a public apology after having publicly wronged someone. Seems the appropriate response most likely to reach the same audience who he feels he embarrassed or wronged them in front of. I don't see it as a publicity issue at all for Jeff.
Sure, there are people who attain a high level of musicianship without being able to read, but that isn't a good reason for failing to teach reading as part of any kind of comprehensive approach to learning music. Of course, part of the issue is that many people play music purely for fun - and reading certainly isn't a requirement for those interested in music in a non-professional capacity. But if you want to make a living playing music - or simply to be able to engage with music and other musicians at the highest possible levels (and I think that Jeff is coming from that perspective) then it is kind of silly to treat reading as "just one way to approach learning". Really, there's no good reason (aside from dyslexia) for anyone seriously interested in being a musician to not learn to read. Because the chances that you are going to be the next Wes or Django are extremely slim.
Having said that, it's certainly true that different people learn different ways - but I don't think that the fundamental materials should so much be the issue as the very particular approaches to learning those materials. But, hey - people are free to totally disregard what Jeff has to say on the subject (or on any other subject for that matter) and move on to other sources of inspiration/direction.
Yes, and I think this has come up in discussions and debates (before he was banned here, for the second time): it seems as his (sometimes harsh) criticisms relate to aspirations of being a professional musician rather than a recreational musician (who may or may not play in a band). If you want to pick up the instrument and play and learn to play some songs and get joy out of it, there is nothing wrong with that and do whatever inspires you and makes you happy. If you want to be an employable musician able to function in most situations, his principles and teaching methods will certainly get you there if you are willing to put in the time and work.
I am not familiar with Steve Bailey's teaching methods, but I have seen some of Victor's stuff and he certainly has an interesting angle. Like teaching newer students and rather than telling them that what they are doing is wrong all the time, working with what they can do and going from there. He's including motivation into his method and of course, he will get around to the "good stuff" too, but giving the inspiration and motivation to continue to develop is an important aspect. How many young musicians quit because it's too hard and they don't have an encouraging teacher? I think this is the type of thing people are talking about when they say there are many ways to get there.
This is a key point. Music came first. This isn't a chicken and egg question. Humans made sounds and created things with sound and at some point it was decided that conventions for recording what those sounds were would be nice and useful.
That is the purpose of written music. Teaching is not the purpose, though it's clearly a handy aid. Creating is also not the purpose.
There are people bringing up non-readers in this thread. There will be people along shortly to smack down on that by saying that those people are the exception and not the rule. Then there will be me saying that nobody knows that because those with a gift for music aren't concerned with who thinks what and because they are somewhat rare they know that they'll be ridiculed if they come out and say that they are that capable. So they won't say it.
Bottom line for me is that there are many ways to learn, many ways to teach, and what will work well for you might totally suck for me. I applaud anyone who has the discipline to learn a lot of theory. I applaud anyone who has the ear and the ability to do this without. Most of us learn that if we're to work together we have to meet each other somewhere in the middle in order to communicate, but communicating is the key. Making music on your own does not require it. Making music with others does.
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If after 9 (so far) pages of this thread ^^^that's the only takeaway someone gets from this thread, it will have been worth it. +1,000,000,000,000
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Jeff Berlin is a Berklee alumni? Curious whether his criticisms of their methodology extend back to when he was a student there, or only apply to their bass curiculum since Steve Bailey became chairman of the Bass Department?
meh, no, not really curious...too much drama.
btw, I'm a Berklee alumni also...and I think they owe me an apology!
It's been a public feud. I see no problem with a public apology.
in the second video, he says he's called them a number of times and left messages . . . sounds like they haven't gotten back to him.
infer away . . .
I've not followed JB's music all that avidly, but what I have heard blows me away: his technical prowess is nothing short of amazing, and as for the "esoteric" side of his playing- With his skillset I'm betting he can bring rich musicality to any piece he performs.
There are other players that I focus on deeper- Chuck Rainey, Marcus Miller, for example, maybe because I can
at least (in my mind) come close to what they lay down, in my own manner.
What I still don't get is the "Kardashian-like" fascination with his demeanor, philosophy, and his apparent feuds with the other bassists mentioned.
Why does it matter? His career is pretty well-established, and it can go wherever he wants to take it, as are the careers of Victor Wooten, Steve Bailey, and the others that he apparently has conflicts with.
TBT, I have no idea what those conflicts are or where they stem from, because I only pay attention to the music of those (and pretty much any other) artists. I leave it to my own devices to find an approach to studying music and growing as a player. I listen mostly to what an artist I admire plays, not to what they say.
That way, I can find and work on my voice.
There are other players that I focus on deeper- Chuck Rainey, Marcus Miller, for example, maybe because I can
at least (in my mind) come close to what they lay down, in my own manner.
What I still don't get is the "Kardashian-like" fascination with his demeanor, philosophy, and his apparent feuds with the other bassists mentioned.
Why does it matter? His career is pretty well-established, and it can go wherever he wants to take it, as are the careers of Victor Wooten, Steve Bailey, and the others that he apparently has conflicts with.
TBT, I have no idea what those conflicts are or where they stem from, because I only pay attention to the music of those (and pretty much any other) artists. I leave it to my own devices to find an approach to studying music and growing as a player. I listen mostly to what an artist I admire plays, not to what they say.
That way, I can find and work on my voice.
Wait a minute!
Of course there are virtuosos that are sweethearts, but how would they pique people's ire??
I still think that those who engage in belittling JB are maybe more than just a little bit envious of his skills and stature.
JB has devoted his life to teaching and playing, and his virtuosity suggests to me that he's manifested himself pretty well in that respect.
And like Miles Davis, (and many others), they "get away with it" except for whatever misgivings they have internally. I guess that's why he felt he needed to make an apology.
Wait a minute!
Of course there are virtuosos that are sweethearts, but how would they pique people's ire??
I still think that those who engage in belittling JB are maybe more than just a little bit envious of his skills and stature.
JB has devoted his life to teaching and playing, and his virtuosity suggests to me that he's manifested himself pretty well in that respect.
And like Miles Davis, (and many others), they "get away with it" except for whatever misgivings they have internally. I guess that's why he felt he needed to make an apology.
just commenting on someone saying that was the root of the problem. the point i was trying to make is that berlin, virtuoso or not, had a considerable reputation for getting into people.
as i and others have pointed out, some of us have firsthand experience that–and it wasn't pleasant, as he belittled and denigrated them . . . and some have them have devoted *their* lives and manifested pretty well, too.
see?
he mentions and makes a bit of an apology in this regard in this in his second vid. anyway, imo, that's where the "kardashian" thing isn't particularly accurate.
in any event jeff went to public for whatever reason and here we are.
tbh, there are a ton of virtuosos out there. most of them do nothing for me. some really do.
When you're sincere only when you've hit rock bottom or have some revelation, are you really sincere? History has a way of repeating itself.
There have been lots of people over many generations who have hit rock bottom. The moment forces them to take account of their lives and actions. I have been there once or twice myself.
Also, true change is hard. It's often not a straight path. The old patterns want to keep coming back. It takes a lot of conscious effort to identify them and break them down.
Also, true change is hard. It's often not a straight path. The old patterns want to keep coming back. It takes a lot of conscious effort to identify them and break them down.
see?
No, I don't see. Having not been belittled by Jeff firsthand, I can't claim that distinction. If he did choose to call me out personally...So what? I'd probably be honored by the attention!
The "Kardashian thing" is pretty evident, (here on TB) as we approach 10 pages of posts regarding his recent statements, once again drawing reactions ranging from praise to ire.
I never hear about anyone getting involved in say, Reginal Veal's (random example) philosophies.
I have no idea about what his thinking on various subject matters is; I only know that he rips!
Lastly, of course there are many virtuosos in all fields. Some have manifested well, many probably not so much. I think Jeff Berlin falls into the former.
So I repeat:
I still think that those who engage in belittling JB are maybe more than just a little bit envious of his skills and stature. Just my observation.
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