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Jeff Berlin apology
- Thread starter db59
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Apples oranges[/QUOTE][QUOTE="DJ Bebop, post: 26812095,
I would rather have a school trained doctor work on me than a self tough one or one that learned some doctor "riffs" from someone.
ATST I won't begrudge anyone that wants to cut up someone in their own backyard or local tavern for the door without a formal education as long as it's not me.
Liver kidney.
Jeff Berlin has NEVER said that reading academic music is the "only" way to learn.
He says it's the best and most efficient way (and he's right) but also states unequivocally that being a self-taught musician who explores creativity is the necessary flip-side to that coin.
Nobody has anything to lose following Jeff's approach to learning music on the bass guitar, and candidly, learning to read music isn't exactly rocket science.
He says it's the best and most efficient way (and he's right) but also states unequivocally that being a self-taught musician who explores creativity is the necessary flip-side to that coin.
Nobody has anything to lose following Jeff's approach to learning music on the bass guitar, and candidly, learning to read music isn't exactly rocket science.
Speaking for myself, the only times I listened to Jeff Berlin were through his recordings, and twice when I saw him perform live: Once solo, once playing straight-ahead jazz with a quartet. Both times he was a master of the bass guitar, and that's all I really cared to hear about or from him.
I'm aware of the controversy surrounding his ideas about many things concerning education and so forth, and the disdain from those who don't care how he expresses himself.
I took his ideas as what they are/were: His ideas and approach. If I felt that they could benefit me or advance my own skill set, I'm all ears. If not- I continue whatever approach moves me forward or refines what I'm already capable of.
He's an astounding musician, and I hope what he's apologizing for provides him some peace of mind.
I'm aware of the controversy surrounding his ideas about many things concerning education and so forth, and the disdain from those who don't care how he expresses himself.
I took his ideas as what they are/were: His ideas and approach. If I felt that they could benefit me or advance my own skill set, I'm all ears. If not- I continue whatever approach moves me forward or refines what I'm already capable of.
He's an astounding musician, and I hope what he's apologizing for provides him some peace of mind.
I think that is one of the points I agree with JB on and where people often interpret differently: music as an art (and creativeness) is not the same thing as music principles and theory. A major scale is a major scale and there is no art or creativeness in that; it just is. So, the actual music skills (theory, ear training, reading, rhythms, etc...) is material that can and should be learned in an academic way. Now, once you have those musical skills, that's when you can apply the creative and artistic process. But they are two separate things, although related when it all comes together.
Everyone learns differently, so I think that there can be many ways to get there. But the end result of learning the music material should be the same.
I generally agree with many points I have heard Jeff Berlin criticize in the past. But I agree the way he does it can be improved. Good on him to recognize that and apologize for it.
I think we can all check ourselves, learn to get out of our rutty ways of thinking, step back, and evaluate our behaviors. Jeff was definitely full of himself and downright mean to (of all people!) Steve Bailey and Victor friggin Wooten. I’ve met Victor on several occasions and he is salt of the earth nice and kind. We all have baggage from how we were raised. Learning to get past it and admitting fault, good on him. He reminds me of my grouchy uncle who mellowed with age.Outside of the 37 people who are aware of this 'controversy'... whatever. At the end of the day, it's okay to disagree. Just don't be a wank about it.
With that in mind, I would like to apologize to the members of TalkBass for all the times my sarcasm hurt someone's feelings. I was raised sarcastic. I'm still sarcastic. But I'm trying to do better (as if!)
So, before I say this, I don't really "get" Jeff Berlin.
But, that being said, the fact that he acknowledged that this is sort of a cycle he gets in will hopefully be genuine and maybe he won't end up in the cycle so much anymore.
But, that being said, the fact that he acknowledged that this is sort of a cycle he gets in will hopefully be genuine and maybe he won't end up in the cycle so much anymore.
I have huge respect for Jeff, but his approach has always been math before music, with a little look down the nose to those who dissent. To me his playing shows this rigidity. Tremendous facility and complete mastery of his instrument, but it lacks grace and expressive melody. Music is the language of the soul, not a formula.
Ever try to teach a jazz schooled drummer to Chicago shuffle if they've never done it before? Even the most killer player can be stymied when asked to do something that goes against the core of their muscle memory. All that isolation of motion training goes out the window when you ask them to mash a loping triplet feel with 3 limbs, while pounding a 4 on the floor kick pattern. Not in any way saying they can't do it, a player is a player, doesn't mean that even a basic shuffle rhythm will come roaring out first try. Played for years with a world class player. Union pit musician card at Disney at 23 with an entire production built around him as the prodigy. His Latin feel changed my life as a player, and the guy had time/chops by the freight train. Took us a solid month to get a truly grooving swing shuffle out of him. He'd tell you the same thing, for weeks he was a total flounder before it clicked. Jeff has never seemed like someone who would take the time to woodshed root styles as they are beneath him. That's his loss.
Edit: Worked with him for a day in an assistant roll, very nice guy. Treated all with respect and humor. Even the teenage metalhead interns, who were wicked freaking annoying.
Ever try to teach a jazz schooled drummer to Chicago shuffle if they've never done it before? Even the most killer player can be stymied when asked to do something that goes against the core of their muscle memory. All that isolation of motion training goes out the window when you ask them to mash a loping triplet feel with 3 limbs, while pounding a 4 on the floor kick pattern. Not in any way saying they can't do it, a player is a player, doesn't mean that even a basic shuffle rhythm will come roaring out first try. Played for years with a world class player. Union pit musician card at Disney at 23 with an entire production built around him as the prodigy. His Latin feel changed my life as a player, and the guy had time/chops by the freight train. Took us a solid month to get a truly grooving swing shuffle out of him. He'd tell you the same thing, for weeks he was a total flounder before it clicked. Jeff has never seemed like someone who would take the time to woodshed root styles as they are beneath him. That's his loss.
Edit: Worked with him for a day in an assistant roll, very nice guy. Treated all with respect and humor. Even the teenage metalhead interns, who were wicked freaking annoying.
In fairness, he isn't apologising for defending his views on bass education, rather he is apologising for publicly naming and criticising Steve and Victor along with Berkley. If you've followed the disagreement over the years that it has been running you'll have seen acrimony on both sides. I'm not defending Jeff's past behaviour but it would be inaccurate to say that he was always the instigator or the sole belligerent. I won't say any more on that matter as whilst Jeff has offered an apology here, he is the only one to have done this. It would therefore be inappropriate for me to comment on things said and done by Victor and Steve as that would be veering towards the finger-pointing, personal criticism that Jeff has disavowed himself of.
Given that this has been a public disagreement spanning several years I can think of no better way of declaring an appeal for peace and understanding in public. The one thing I really want Jeff to do this time is to stick with it. He freely admits that he has apologised before and then slid back into personal criticism. I will say that he has not always been treat with grace and fairness when he has apologised or tried to build bridges. Despite being a fantastic player he is effectively one man standing against an establishment and one might expect the figureheads of the establishment to be magnanimous. That hasn't always been the case.
Someone mentioned overleaf that people who have been to therapy can consider themselves 'fixed' and by inference become blinded to a new set of personal flaws they have post-therapy. Jeff has mentioned previously when speaking of his experience in therapy that there is no 'fix', rather you become a 'work in progress' trying to strive to be a better, happier person. That is why this time, I hope Jeff can end the war with Berkley and stick to his stated good intentions here.
People are people. Even the extraordinary are still people. Glad Jeff's getting himself to a better place.
Others have replied, but even so I will emphasize that Jeff is not apologizing for his beliefs. He's apologizing for being a grade-A jerk to those who disagree with him.
I don't know much about the Bailey/Wooten/Berlin kerfuffle, but I've caught similar Berlin insults over the years, along with other uncouth statements such as "music store employees are frustrated, failed musicians". And some good friends of mine have studied directly under Jeff, and heard him denigrate those who disagree with him.
It's been pointed out that Jeff has a new CD out, so the timing of his apology is unfortunate. He should have done it months ago, or waited a few months. As things stand, no one can be blamed for being skeptical. Even so, his apology seemed sincere and I hope it truly is.
I thought he had already publicly apologized to VW and SB. If so, and people choose not to accept it, learn from your mistakes, don’t repeat them and move on.
As for the the apology to Berklee, that’s a for profit institution of higher learning. Speaking as a public school teacher and a former student of Berklee, no such institution is above or should be immune to criticism. Does he really owe them an apology? I doubt it!
As for the the apology to Berklee, that’s a for profit institution of higher learning. Speaking as a public school teacher and a former student of Berklee, no such institution is above or should be immune to criticism. Does he really owe them an apology? I doubt it!
Wondered the same thing. In essence, I agree with many of his beliefs regarding musical education, but he definitely has communication problems.
Coincidentally, just before seeing this thread I watched part of a very old Jeff Berlin video,
'Jeff Berlin - Super Technical Approach'. Such a monster player.
He obviously has some demons, which will be a work in progress to control.
Many brilliant players have fallen foul of drink/drugs, I do hope this isn't the case with Jeff.
Regarding musicians that can't read, Errol Garner and Stan Getz spring to mind, but they are the exception. BTW I am very pro reading and practical experience.
Yeah. Wes Montgomery and Django, too, non-readers. Two of the all time greats. It's possible to thrive without reading music, especially in pop/rock and such, where that's kind of normal. Still better to be able to read, of course. But when Jeff redefines his instrument like Wes and Django did ... maybe then I'd view his heavy didacticism as less of an ego trip. (Or maybe not
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