Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[BBQisgood]

Jeff reminds me of a professor I once had who was more set in his ways than probably anyone I had met beforehand. He was a hard man to please. He was tough. He was great at his job.

This professor made it his mission to drastically reduce our reliance on one particular resource (a popular, commonly used one) because he was convinced that it stunted our growth in the learning phase when he thought our time would be better spent learning from other, more fundamental and profound resources.

My professor was a staunch advocate for doing things his way. Do I agree with everything he said? No.

Did he need me to agree with his strongest convictions? No.

Did he mind that I had a different opinion? Nope.

Did he grill the everliving daylights out of me in front of my friends and colleagues almost to the point of ego destruction? Yes, sir!

Was he sometimes a bit too rough? Yup.

Did I stop using said resource as much because of his opinion? Yes.

Did I stop it altogether? No. and I don't suspect he would have minded.

Did he maybe push things a little far for the sake of stimulating thought? You bet.


And in the end, when I had mastered the basics and dug in the dirt his way, I was changed for the better. When the time came for me to strike out on my own, I said goodbye to him last. I am sure that what I saw was just because of dust in his eye.

 

[Downsman]

This is when the magic of chromatics come into play though! Don't forget to check the down beats (1,2,3,4), a note placed anywhere else might simply just be moving to another chord tone, it could be completely out of key and be fine! Look at the song I mentioned earlier, "Chameleon", for a wonderful example of this!

I type out loud, that last sentence got me...

Yes, a bunch of the songs we play do have chromatic runs and passing notes, but as you say, they don't tend to land on the down beats. And they also don't tend to clash with what someone else in the band is playing. That's what I'm hoping to avoid

 

[SteveCS]

I hate to see it, but he's dead right. I don't know any young person who doesn't have to use a tuner. Most people typically think being able to do that is means your some immaculate guitar player....

I did have an inkling... There was a thread a while ago where I suggested that someone with aspiration to be a musician but that could not tune by ear within a few seconds might want to rethink their options... Went down like a lead balloon...

 

[Downsman]

I did have an inkling... There was a thread a while ago where I suggested that someone with aspiration to be a musician but that could not tune by ear within a few seconds might want to rethink their options... Went down like a lead balloon...

Just to be clear on this, we're talking about being able to hear your guitar is out of tune and tune it so it's in tune with itself, or in tune with the other instruments you're playing with, as opposed to being able to play say the D string on its own and hear it's at the wrong frequency and correct it to the right one? I only ask because a few people have mentioned having perfect pitch which for me would be a bridge too far in terms of something to aspire to.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Yes, a bunch of the songs we play do have chromatic runs and passing notes, but as you say, they don't tend to land on the down beats. And they also don't tend to clash with what someone else in the band is playing. That's what I'm hoping to avoid

You mentioned you're mostly doing 60's covers. But an interesting topic to look into might be arrangement. I stated earlier somewhere that I'm currently looking into a book "Arrangement For Large Jazz Ensemble" (now before I go any further I'll add that I don't plan on doing any ensemble work anytime soon, and from your past comments I'm gonna assume we're about the same in that aspect for the time being). Nonetheless, it's ever the more informative, with information involving chordal arrangement for more than one instrument, lowest interval limits, composing around a lead instrument, and various upper structures of chords. One could take this information and use it for writing parts that involve the bass and a guitar (or more!). Take that example you saw for the brass section and play the bass line (or even more notes if you experimental), have a friend play the lead and another fill the rest of the chords out. This is really can be pretty interesting!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I did have an inkling... There was a thread a while ago where I suggested that someone with aspiration to be a musician but that could not tune by ear within a few seconds might want to rethink their options... Went down like a lead balloon...

Sounds familiar!!

 

[FantasticFour]

Listen to some Eric Clapton or Jeff Beck for some great examples, there's a reason a lot of those greats started on the "blues"!

Very good idea! I remember losing a night's sleep night over Beck/Wilkenfeld videos. Time to dig deeper!!

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

This is when the magic of chromatics come into play though! Don't forget to check the down beats (1,2,3,4), a note placed anywhere else might simply just be moving to another chord tone, it could be completely out of key and be fine! Look at the song I mentioned earlier, "Chameleon", for a wonderful example of this!

I type out loud, that last sentence got me...

Ahahah ... sorry but aside from the legs of the girls dressed in red, what does this song has which can be considered worth remembering from a musical perspective?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Very good idea! I remember losing a night's sleep night over Beck/Wilkenfeld videos. Time to dig deeper!!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Ahahah ... sorry but aside from the legs of the girls dressed in red, what does this song has which can be considered worth remembering from a musical perspective?

", Chameleon"

I'd argue Boy George is a genius however!

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Just to be clear on this, we're talking about being able to hear your guitar is out of tune and tune it so it's in tune with itself, or in tune with the other instruments you're playing with, as opposed to being able to play say the D string on its own and hear it's at the wrong frequency and correct it to the right one? I only ask because a few people have mentioned having perfect pitch which for me would be a bridge too far in terms of something to aspire to.

IMHO, everyone who weeps about other not being able to tune by ear should at least be able to tune professionally themselves: That is getting a reference tone (say an A) of any frequency on which the ensemble agrees; then having tuned the A-string tuning the other strings on his/her own.

(To all
However, I lack the understanding when people appear to tell others they should not play guitar/bass when they cannot tune it by ear - what's the point?
As long as the ensemble agrees on the same tuners (read: reference pitch), they all can use tuners, why not? Even if a tuner goes defect, take one of your colleagues.

A tuner to my understanding is as a valid tool as is an overdrive pedal or preamp is.
I may be wrong. In that case, feel free to correct me

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Ahahah ... sorry but aside from the legs of the girls dressed in red, what does this song has which can be considered worth remembering from a musical perspective?

Well, I like it, but that's just... well, you know, like... my opinion, man

 

[5thsand4ths]

Well, I like it, but that's just... well, you know, like... my opinion, man

Fact is you should be doing chord tone inversion exercises instead of listening non-educational songs.

 

[Downsman]

You mentioned you're mostly doing 60's covers. But an interesting topic to look into might be arrangement. I stated earlier somewhere that I'm currently looking into a book "Arrangement For Large Jazz Ensemble" (now before I go any further I'll add that I don't plan on doing any ensemble work anytime soon, and from your past comments I'm gonna assume we're about the same in that aspect for the time being). Nonetheless, it's ever the more informative, with information involving chordal arrangement for more than one instrument, lowest interval limits, composing around a lead instrument, and various upper structures of chords. One could take this information and use it for writing parts that involve the bass and a guitar (or more!). Take that example you saw for the brass section and play the bass line (or even more notes if you experimental), have a friend play the lead and another fill the rest of the chords out. This is really can be pretty interesting!

The previous band I was in was an originals one that wrote our own songs. Not particularly good as the guitarist was crap (which I feel okay saying because I was the guitarist). But I really enjoyed the songwriting part. That was when I was trying to learn theory. Then the bassist quit, I had a go at the bass while we looked for a replacement, and realised I was much better at it than I was on guitar. When the band fell apart I somehow ended up as the bassist with a bunch of much, much better musicians playing 60s garage despite being so new to it. Part of me is still waiting for them to turn around and say "hang on, who let this guy in?" This thread has inspired me to try and catch up with the others now.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

If you really want to listen to a song or, better, to a riff in which the substitution of one note generates, in this case, a high tension effect you may wish to check the primitive Rickenbacker 4001 sound of Goblin’s bass player (Fabio Pignatelli) in Mad Puppet as arranged by the late great jazz piano player Giorgio Gaslini ... starts at around 01:42 ...

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

", Chameleon"

I'd argue Boy George is a genius however!

Chameleon was a masterpiece because of the simple intuition of Mr. Mason with his off-beat snare drum so well placed ... harmonically is quite a boring song, especially in its central part where Mr. Hancock grinds our auditive apparatus with his twangy synthesisers

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Fact is you should be doing chord tone inversion exercises instead of listening non-educational songs.

*lol* I rather practice the basics along such songs. When I got that, then might come speed metal songs for getting faster and harmonically richer

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Chameleon was a masterpiece because of the simple intuition of Mr. Mason with his off-beat snare drum so well placed ... harmonically is quite a boring song, especially in its central part where Mr. Hancock grinds our auditive apparatus with his twangy synthesisers

Yes, but doesn't that make it an excellent choice as backing track for practicing improvisation?
Because there is so much room left for excitement?
I mean that without negative connotation - I stand to the fact that I do like that song nonetheless

Rickenbacker 4001

With these words you caught my exclusive attention!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

If you really want to listen to a song or, better, to a riff in which the substitution of one note generates, in this case, a high tension effect you may wish to check the primitive Rickenbacker 4001 sound of Goblin’s bass player (Fabio Pignatelli) in Mad Puppet as arranged by the late great jazz piano player Giorgio Gaslini ... starts at around 01:42 ...

You're missing my "joke" I believe. I gave Herbie Hancock as my originial example, not Culture Club.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Fact is you should be doing chord tone inversion exercises instead of listening non-educational songs.

Boy George uses chord tones!