Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[JeffBerlin]

Please provide a/any example that Jeff Berlin as a teacher doesn’t see/hear the different levels of knowledge, abilities, etc... between his students.

I'd like to see this example myself! Clearly the person that made the statement has a right to believe what he/she wishes. But, I would like to know what information they have that got them to make this statement. Thanks.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

What it doesn't give me is better knowledge of the board, although that's what the exercices are designed for, making you go up and down following cycle of fifths, full tone scales and such. Why? Because I don't have the time to think about it. Why don't I have time to think about it? Yup. That's 'it'.

You mean learning where on the board which note is?
If so, then it might help to write down what you played - or even what you want to play.
It helps me to better know the names of the notes, as well as reading scores, when writing them.
And since that's what I want to do, getting to know the note names on the fretboard better, comes automatically as side-benefit while working on scores.
Before, I arrogantly did not bother about what the notes are called I want to play - as long as I play them
But it limited me when trying to transpose melodies for the violin - and of course when speaking to others.
So, it became my motivation to improve that - still, I was not fond of learning that seperately; I did not want to waste time. Fortunately, as I started writing melody and rhythm scores, I discovered that it also helped me remembering where which note is and what it is called.

 

[5thsand4ths]

Returning to the original question, "What is taught without Teaching The Facts?". Unless someone taught false information didn't they teach the facts? If a beginner wanted to learn the chords to a certain Chuck Berry song and a teacher provided the chords what facts were incorrect? His goal wasn't to play for the Count Basie Orchestra, it was to learn Johnny B Goode. If someone wanted to learn a slap technique and was taught the method what facts were incorrect?

If I wanted to fix my toilet and was provided with the intructions from a psuedo-plumber, rather than commence my journeyman plumbing studies, does that mean I wasn't given the facts? I'm sure I can go to a plumbing forum and find someone preaching the study of physics and mechanical engineering, and yes I could really improve my toilet fixing skills by doing that, but Joe The Average Plumber gave me the answer that I needed and wanted. All I wanted to do was learn how to fix my toilet, not how to design waterworks for Madison Square Garden. It really shouldn't concern the plumbing-forum physics guru what my goal was and what I did with my time or money, or how little I learned about fluid dynamics and the formula for calculating the flow rate.

 

[Downsman]

You mean learning where on the board which note is?
If so, then it might help to write down what you played - or even what you want to play.
It helps me to better know the names of the notes, as well as reading scores, when writing them.
And since that's what I want to do, getting to know the note names on the fretboard better, comes automatically as side-benefit while working on scores.

I'm trying to kill three birds with one stone actually, by doing the cycle of fifths chord tone exercises from a music score. So I'm learning how to read music (figuring out what the note is on the bass clef), learning the fretboard by finding where those notes are on my bass, and also learning the chord tones for all the different chords in a key.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I'm trying to kill three birds with one stone actually, by doing the cycle of fifths chord tone exercises from a music score. So I'm learning how to read music (figuring out what the note is on the bass clef), learning the fretboard by finding where those notes are on my bass, and also learning the chord tones for all the different chords in a key.

(EDIT: Forget this post - I mistook mixed it up with the another post, sorry!)

Did you also try implementing that along music, maybe a backing track?
That might also help to memorize it better.
And of course, writing it down myself is a huge help to me; even when I was studying (not music but computer science ;O)

For instance, I know I cannot learn just by isolated exercises like playing different chords etc. - I depend on context; I have never been good at just memorizing things, as others could do in school, or learning a poem for Christmas
Maybe you also need a kind of connection, a link to some context?

 

[FantasticFour]

You mean learning where on the board which note is?
If so, then it might help to write down what you played - or even what you want to play.
It helps me to better know the names of the notes, as well as reading scores, when writing them.
And since that's what I want to do, getting to know the note names on the fretboard better, comes automatically as side-benefit while working on scores.
Before, I arrogantly did not bother about what the notes are called I want to play - as long as I play them
But it limited me when trying to transpose melodies for the violin - and of course when speaking to others.
So, it became my motivation to improve that - still, I was not fond of learning that seperately; I did not want to waste time. Fortunately, as I started writing melody and rhythm scores, I discovered that it also helped me remembering where which note is and what it is called.

Yup, I mean just that!
Having perfect pitch has made me super lazy. Since I will know what note it is once I played it, there are efforts I just never really made. Same when I took classical harmony classes. I would always do it right by internal ear without learning the rules. If the exam subject was "write...." all was good, but if it looked like "explain why..." then I was in serious trouble
I never use tabs though, and rely on interval reflexes I now somehow have acquired. I play one note, if I'm lucky enough that it's one I actually need, then I'll know that the minor third would be there, and the seventh there and so on.
But point at a certain fret and a certain string and ask me what note it is, I sure as hell won't know unless you play it.
What I need to do is stop being a lazy a** is all
More seriously, I just need to stop being afraid of stuff I don't know and just learn it.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I'm trying to kill three birds with one stone actually, by doing the cycle of fifths chord tone exercises from a music score. So I'm learning how to read music (figuring out what the note is on the bass clef), learning the fretboard by finding where those notes are on my bass, and also learning the chord tones for all the different chords in a key.

Sorry, the post where I quoted you I mistook it with the original one by FantasticFour.
This post I mean - forget it, sorry for my confusion!

Did you also try implementing that along music, maybe a backing track?
That might also help to memorize it better.
And of course, writing it down myself is a huge help to me; even when I was studying (not music but computer science ;O)

For instance, I know I cannot learn just by isolated exercises like playing different chords etc. - I depend on context; I have never been good at just memorizing things, as others could do in school, or learning a poem for Christmas
Maybe you also need a kind of connection, a link to some context?

 

[Michael Schreiber]

More seriously, I just need to stop being afraid of stuff I don't know and just learn it.

Yes, +1000.
This is what I concluded as well. During the last two years I was not only afraid, but maybe even a bit self-deluded; being pleased with my writing and playing - without doubting if it wasn't time to expand my toolset; with tools I might not even be able to imagine, at this point. And this thread really encouraged me looking for a good teacher, again.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

One measure would be the level of math comptency in the general population. By this measure, math education in the schools is a disaster, and always has been.

Is this germane to bass education? That depends. Is it a problem that the majority of people who try to learn music, give it up?

This is quite true and would be interesting to see!
And, germane, I said it probably is not. Just a thought I had. But, yes this is a problem, a large one. Much like how mass majority, myself included, give up trying to learn math in-depth beyond basic algebra.

 

[FantasticFour]

Yes, +1000.
This is what I concluded as well. During the last two years I was not only afraid, but maybe even a bit self-deluded; being pleased with my writing and playing - without doubting if it wasn't time to expand my toolset; with tools I might not even be able to imagine, at this point. And this thread really encouraged me looking for a good teacher, again.

I was started into music aged 4, 'having dispositions', and have had since countless teachers. Few of them, if any, provided any help at all. Most of them have either ignored me, taught me stuff in a skewed way that would actually cover the truth of the matter (form over function) or misled me into thinking I was the one not good enough
I think Jeff is totally unaware of what it's like in some parts of the globe to 'go out and find a teacher', especially if we're talking about American music styles. My general experience of teachers here is that their ego is proportionally inverse to their teaching skill, even more so if they are or have been somewhat successful as musicians. I for one will stay clear as much as I can. I hope I have packed enough experience to walk the road on my own. And indeed, courage is what it boils down to.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

You mean learning where on the board which note is?
If so, then it might help to write down what you played - or even what you want to play.
It helps me to better know the names of the notes, as well as reading scores, when writing them.
And since that's what I want to do, getting to know the note names on the fretboard better, comes automatically as side-benefit while working on scores.
Before, I arrogantly did not bother about what the notes are called I want to play - as long as I play them
But it limited me when trying to transpose melodies for the violin - and of course when speaking to others.
So, it became my motivation to improve that - still, I was not fond of learning that seperately; I did not want to waste time. Fortunately, as I started writing melody and rhythm scores, I discovered that it also helped me remembering where which note is and what it is called.

I fell under much of what you described there for quite a while. A great exercise for me has been to, in the key of G for example, start on F of the E string and arpeggiate all the chord shapes across the neck in Locrian (I'm doing three note per string shapes for these, but one should probably try the conventional patterns and any others there may be). Then, on to G and the Ionian mode, and so on and so forth. This has been great for linking single arpeggios up and down the neck.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I was started into music aged 4, 'having dispositions', and have had since countless teachers. Few of them, if any, provided any help at all. Most of them have either ignored me, taught me stuff in a skewed way that would actually cover the truth of the matter (form over function) or misled me into thinking I was the one not good enough
I think Jeff is totally unaware of what it's like in some parts of the globe to 'go out and find a teacher', especially if we're talking about American music styles. My general experience of teachers here is that their ego is proportionally inverse to their teaching skill, even more so if they are or have been somewhat successful as musicians. I for one will stay clear as much as I can. I hope I have packed enough experience to walk the road on my own. And indeed, courage is what it boils down to.

I had a similar thought - because I also have the feeling that many many "teachers" or "pop schools" might be nothing more than cram schools, in fact. Not saying it would be bad itself - but why claiming to be a school when it is not?
I think that may be well related to Jeff's point, and his criticism about (bass) teaching today - which I cannot evaluate myself, I don't have enough knowledge nor do I know much schools, to begin with.

What I have in mind is finding someone like my high school music teacher - he has the knowledge, good teaching capabilities IMHO, and(!) the understanding of the music I do like. While he does like Jazz (which I couldn't grasp at that point at all ;O) he also was able to feel about Beethoven's music the same way I did - so, I know he is not narrow minded. And I would have no reason to getting tempted to not trust him; deluding and telling myself "Yeah, he's a Jazz freak anyway, what does he know about punk rock?"

That's why I am looking for such a teacher - rather than attending a school where someone who is a student himself and has no educational background would try to teach me. Maybe he could - but chances are I wouldn't trust him and not listen to what he would have to teach me. I am stubborn and need someone who is obviously superior so that I don't dare to disagree without seriously thinking about his advice.
Phew, sorry if that went off-topic too far.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I fell under much of what you described there for quite a while. A great exercise for me has been to, in the key of G for example, start on F of the E string and arpeggiate all the chord shapes across the neck in Locrian (I'm doing three note per string shapes for these, but one should probably try the conventional patterns and any others there may be). Then, on to G and the Ionian mode, and so on and so forth. This has been great for linking single arpeggios up and down the neck.

Yes, that is an excellent example, and was basically what I started doing along some free back tracks; making up simple a simple line, starting in Dorian, then repeating it in Locrian, in order to feel how the mode changes the mood - so I have a reason to remember it. Good example, in my opinion, at least for melodies. For rhythm and improvising, I prefer to stick to chords than thinking in scales - because scales leave me too much options among which I cannot decide instantly. I am not there, yet - still a long way to go But it's fun! And does not feel meaningless to me.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I had a similar thought - because I also have the feeling that many many "teachers" or "pop schools" might be nothing more than cram schools, in fact. Not saying it would be bad itself - but why claiming to be a school when it is not?
I think that may be well related to Jeff's point, and his criticism about (bass) teaching today - which I cannot evaluate myself, I don't have enough knowledge nor do I know much schools, to begin with.

What I have in mind is finding someone like my high school music teacher - he has the knowledge, good teaching capabilities IMHO, and(!) the understanding of the music I do like. While he does like Jazz (which I couldn't grasp at that point at all ;O) he also was able to feel about Beethoven's music the same way I did - so, I know he is not narrow minded. And I would have no reason to getting tempted to not trust him; deluding and telling myself "Yeah, he's a Jazz freak anyway, what does he know about punk rock?"

That's why I am looking for such a teacher - rather than attending a school where someone who is a student himself and has no educational background would try to teach me. Maybe he could - but chances are I wouldn't trust him and not listen to what he would have to teach me. I am stubborn and need someone who is obviously superior so that I don't dare to disagree without seriously thinking about his advice.
Phew, sorry if that went off-topic too far.

This is often why I wish I payed more attention to my middle school music teacher, and almost wish to search him out this day for music advice, knowing he taught at one point in time. Not only was the man an amazing composer with an ear for classical and jazz, but I remember a sort of "music history" class he taught. Now at the time I took this class my point of view was very askew as I had just quit his band class and, "now I'm in here?", said my twelve year old mind. Looking back however he taught us about all sorts of kinds of music, from the eclectic to top-40 pop of the past. I specifically remember his course going over the decade of 90's, which really took me by surprise for a man such as himself, and how he explained his love for bands like "Nirvana", while also classifying them and their style in a very professional, educational context, describing how and why music may have evolved to that state in time. (And all this in the seventh grade!) I sometimes think he may have very much influenced at least my choice of musical listening from that point on, which began to range widely.
(And the man introduced us to Monty Python, I mean come on! )

 

[FantasticFour]

I had a similar thought - because I also have the feeling that many many "teachers" or "pop schools" might be nothing more than cram schools, in fact. Not saying it would be bad itself - but why claiming to be a school when it is not?
I think that may be well related to Jeff's point, and his criticism about (bass) teaching today - which I cannot evaluate myself, I don't have enough knowledge nor do I know much schools, to begin with.

What I have in mind is finding someone like my high school music teacher - he has the knowledge, good teaching capabilities IMHO, and(!) the understanding of the music I do like. While he does like Jazz (which I couldn't grasp at that point at all ;O) he also was able to feel about Beethoven's music the same way I did - so, I know he is not narrow minded. And I would have no reason to getting tempted to not trust him; deluding and telling myself "Yeah, he's a Jazz freak anyway, what does he know about punk rock?"

That's why I am looking for such a teacher - rather than attending a school where someone who is a student himself and has no educational background would try to teach me. Maybe he could - but chances are I wouldn't trust him and not listen to what he would have to teach me. I am stubborn and need someone who is obviously superior so that I don't dare to disagree without seriously thinking about his advice.
Phew, sorry if that went off-topic too far.

It didn't, at least as far as I'm concerned!
Last time I had a bass lesson I found myself in the awkward position of correcting the guy's transcriptions (and it wasn't a Coltrane solo if you see what I mean).
My luck is that all the musicians I admire and listen to have a background in jazz, be it their primary style or not. That's why it's so clear to me when Jeff says that you have to learn jazz even if that's not what you want to play in the end. Because all the musicians I love have done just that and have that jazz richness (is that even a word in English?) to their note choice.
Stubborness... yeah I got quite a bit of that going on too. The problem it's that it's not always you being stupid. I get where you're coming from with the 'obviously superior' but still... not even that is enough to guarantee good teaching is it.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Yes, that is an excellent example, and was basically what I started doing along some free back tracks; making up simple a simple line, starting in Dorian, then repeating it in Locrian, in order to feel how the mode changes the mood - so I have a reason to remember it. Good example, in my opinion, at least for melodies. For rhythm and improvising, I prefer to stick to chords than thinking in scales - because scales leave me too much options among which I cannot decide instantly. I am not there, yet - still a long way to go But it's fun! And does not feel meaningless to me.

I merely mentioned scales to refer to neck position (I think Berkeley labels these positions 1-5, this didn't make sense to me though, since, when you step back to look at it, they were just five of the seven modes arranged on a single string down the neck). I'd stick to chord tones nearly all the time in my opinion. But, I often get complaints for not throwing in enough "blues scale type stuff" (chromatics! ) on a 12-bar, so who really knows?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

It didn't, at least as far as I'm concerned!
Last time I had a bass lesson I found myself in the awkward position of correcting the guy's transcriptions (and it wasn't a Coltrane solo if you see what I mean).
My luck is that all the musicians I admire and listen to have a background in jazz, be it their primary style or not. That's why it's so clear to me when Jeff says that you have to learn jazz even if that's not what you want to play in the end. Because all the musicians I love have done just that and have that jazz richness (is that even a word in English?) to their note choice.
Stubborness... yeah I got quite a bit of that going on too. The problem it's that it's not always you being stupid. I get where you're coming from with the 'obviously superior' but still... not even that is enough to guarantee good teaching is it.

Listen to some Eric Clapton or Jeff Beck for some great examples, there's a reason a lot of those greats started on the "blues"!

 

[Michael Schreiber]

you're coming from with the 'obviously superior' but still... not even that is enough to guarantee good teaching is it.

Agreed! Sounded way too... easy-trustingly obedient, in hindsight.

 

[SteveCS]

...
Few people here can tune their guitar by ear.
...

You know Jeff I've been with you every step of the way so far, but do you honestly believe this to be true? Let me put it another way - I hope you are wrong, but if not it's a very sad state of affairs.

 

[Downsman]

For rhythm and improvising, I prefer to stick to chords than thinking in scales - because scales leave me too much options among which I cannot decide instantly. I am not there, yet - still a long way to go But it's fun! And does not feel meaningless to me.

That's what I like about what I'm practicing now, thanks to these threads. Every part of it has a practical usefulness. My daughter took up the piano, switching from violin, about a month ago. She has her teacher and music book, but she was also given a book of simple film songs at Christmas. And we downloaded the music for a couple of easy Christmas carols. She isn't ready to play both the right and left hand parts yet (though learning at ridiculous speed. I'm seriously jealous). So I thought it would be fun if she tried the right hand part and I played the bass part. To do that I need to be able to read the bass clef. And find the notes on my bass. So I'm trying to tick those two boxes. And in my band people usually suggest new songs in advance so I can listen to the songs and work out the bass line before we play them (which I'm reasonably quick at, though 60s garage tends not to be too complex). But sometimes someone suggests something in the room, and the guitarists and drummer dive right in and I'm left standing there watching them because I can't figure out what to play quick enough, even if they shout out the chords. So that's where the chord tones come in, along with knowing the fretboard. So yes, playing chord tones through the cycle of fifths from written music (not tabs) is not at all meaningless to me.