Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Michael Schreiber]

You know Jeff I've been with you every step of the way so far, but do you honestly believe this to be true? Let me put it another way - I hope you are wrong, but if not it's a very sad state of affairs.

Actually, I wouldn't wonder - if there's no need to practice tuning by ear, isn't that an invitation to trusting the tuner?
That's what most people seem to do at gigs, anyway - who really tunes like an orchestra? Having the Oboe playing an A, then tuning your guitar by ear? OK, I know - hard to find Oboe players in most of "our" bands, here, I guess

 

[5thsand4ths]

You know Jeff I've been with you every step of the way so far, but do you honestly believe this to be true? Let me put it another way - I hope you are wrong, but if not it's a very sad state of affairs.

The best I've ever seen tune instruments by ear is my late father. He was a fiddle and guitar player who played with some big country names but he never read a note of music. He'd watch guys screw around with tuning and just grab their instruments and tune them in seconds. He had a real natural ability to hear perfect pitch.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Returning to the original question, "What is taught without Teaching The Facts?". Unless someone taught false information didn't they teach the facts? If a beginner wanted to learn the chords to a certain Chuck Berry song and a teacher provided the chords what facts were incorrect? His goal wasn't to play for the Count Basie Orchestra, it was to learn Johnny B Goode. If someone wanted to learn a slap technique and was taught the method what facts were incorrect?

If I wanted to fix my toilet and was provided with the intructions from a psuedo-plumber, rather than commence my journeyman plumbing studies, does that mean I wasn't given the facts? I'm sure I can go to a plumbing forum and find someone preaching the study of physics and mechanical engineering, and yes I could really improve my toilet fixing skills by doing that, but Joe The Average Plumber gave me the answer that I needed and wanted. All I wanted to do was learn how to fix my toilet, not how to design waterworks for Madison Square Garden. It really shouldn't concern the plumbing-forum physics guru what my goal was and what I did with my time or money, or how little I learned about fluid dynamics and the formula for calculating the flow rate.

Interesting thoughts! Using your plumbing example, either people hire someone to do it or else they replace the replaceable parts. I don't believe that I ever stated or eluded to acquiring skills to fix the plumbing at Madison Square Garden. People often misunderstand that providing a quality service in music education doesn't mean that a level of incredibly high skills much be taught. This is an incorrect assumption on your part and many other people. People do not read what I say, just what they think that I said.

The "facts" as I use the term refers to the facts of musical construction, those being, say, major and minor chords or reading the notes written in exercises and etudes. By paying to learn songs from a teacher, you have denied yourself a valuable experience that lasts for life, the experience of using your ear to try and imitate what you hear. Just know that practically everybody that learned how to play a Chuck Berry song or some songs like it did this as self taught musicians and by ear. Or, a friend that figured out the chords might show it to as well.

So, while I agree with you that teaching the chords of a Chuck Berry song is teaching it factually, it is an experience that neither improves your playing nor gives you tools to learn other Berry songs. Instead of learning the factual content of music that every Chuck Berry song is constructed upon, you choose to avoid this kind of instruction, denied to you by your own volition. This is why I state without reserve that bass education is in terrible shape. I don't know of one bass teacher that shares these thoughts or points of guidance with their fans or students, points of learning that are in use in the teaching of other instruments. And because bass teachers or schools don't do this, I feel that little will change regarding the improvement in the teaching of music to bass players. It is much easier to pay to learn a Chuck Berry song instead of learning the musical elements that makes up the song and all songs like it in the first place.

 

[Downsman]

Speaking of tuning, that's another possible benefit for going for "musical" education. Even if all you want to do is hear songs and play along to them.

Maybe because my band plays lesser known 60s garage songs, often the only source is someone's uploaded recording on Youtube from an old 45. Turntables play at varying speeds. The band probably didn't have electronic tuners and if they even remembered to tune up before recording, it would probably have been concert style, so relative to each other. Which all adds up to often the notes are almost impossible to identify. Is that an F# or a G? It's kind of half way in between. Not to mention how often the bass is completely buried in the mix. So learning the songs the way I've been I've often had the guitarist complain that I was playing a bum note. To me it sounded just like the recording, but of course as a band we have to commit ourselves to a key. If I know the chord tones and progressions then that shouldn't happen any more because I'll know that even though it sounds right against the recording, that note isn't in the key we've committed to so I need to change it. Hope that makes sense.

 

[gln1955]

There are a few aspects in your statement.
(We see what we want to see.)
Here is how I understand the gist of Jeff Berlin’s idea.
Why would you pay money (sometimes, a lot of money) for lessons/courses that have almost no value?

Because value is not an absolute. If the person paying for a particular instruction is getting what they want from it, its of value to them. This is the whole point you are missing. Not everyone wants what Jeff is willing and able to teach. Despite the fact that they would end up more well rounded musicians if they did. For some, a course of study that is heavy on technique and light on theory is the ticket.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

You know Jeff I've been with you every step of the way so far, but do you honestly believe this to be true? Let me put it another way - I hope you are wrong, but if not it's a very sad state of affairs.

I hate to say it, but he's dead right. I don't know any young person who doesn't have to use a tuner. Most people typically think being able to do that is means your some immaculate guitar player....

 

[gln1955]

I hate to see it, but he's dead right. I don't know any young person who doesn't have to use a tuner. Most people typically think being able to do that is means your some immaculate guitar player....

That might be true but so what? Tuning a guitar is a purely technical exercise. Anyone can be taught to do it without any other knowledge of musical theory or how to play. It was the first thing I learned when I took my first guitar lesson back in the stone age.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Speaking of tuning, that's another possible benefit for going for "musical" education. Even if all you want to do is hear songs and play along to them.

Maybe because my band plays lesser known 60s garage songs, often the only source is someone's uploaded recording on Youtube from an old 45. Turntables play at varying speeds. The band probably didn't have electronic tuners and if they even remembered to tune up before recording, it would probably have been concert style, so relative to each other. Which all adds up to often the notes are almost impossible to identify. Is that an F# or a G? It's kind of half way in between. Not to mention how often the bass is completely buried in the mix. So learning the songs the way I've been I've often had the guitarist complain that I was playing a bum note. To me it sounded just like the recording, but of course as a band we have to commit ourselves to a key. If I know the chord tones and progressions then that shouldn't happen any more because I'll know that even though it sounds right against the recording, that note isn't in the key we've committed to so I need to change it. Hope that makes sense.

This is when the magic of chromatics come into play though! Don't forget to check the down beats (1,2,3,4), a note placed anywhere else might simply just be moving to another chord tone, it could be completely out of key and be fine! Look at the song I mentioned earlier, "Chameleon" by Herbie Hancock, for a wonderful example of this!

I type out loud, that last sentence got me...

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Because value is not an absolute. If the person paying for a particular instruction is getting what they want from it, its of value to them. This is the whole point you are missing. Not everyone wants what Jeff is willing and able to teach. Despite the fact that they would end up more well rounded musicians if they did. For some, a course of study that is heavy on technique and light on theory is the ticket.

Then why are they still listening to what Mr. Berlin has to say?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

That might be true but so what? Tuning a guitar is a purely technical exercise. Anyone can be taught to do it without any other knowledge of musical theory or how to play. It was the first thing I learned when I took my first guitar lesson back in the stone age.

You proved my point. That's sad that people think this is hard!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

For anyone who missed this: How Were Musicians Taught For Decades?

 

[Spin Doctor]

It is much easier to pay a teach to teach them a Chuck Berry song instead of learning the musical elements that makes up the song and all songs like it in the first place.

Why, exactly do you think this never happens? It's the way I was taught and I'm sure, countless other people also. I really don't get your argument. It's so pointless.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Why, exactly do you think this never happens? It's the way I was taught and I'm sure, countless other people also. I really don't get your argument. It's so pointless.

Why do I believe that WHAT never happens. Can you expand on this?

 

[FantasticFour]

Why, exactly do you think this never happens? It's the way I was taught and I'm sure, countless other people also. I really don't get your argument. It's so pointless.

I understand it as "learn to play the song" vs "learn to play the song and to reutilize this skill in other songs and compose your own songs in that style" for the same price. Of course it's anyone's prerogative to prefer the former. But, huh?

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Because value is not an absolute. If the person paying for a particular instruction is getting what they want from it, its of value to them. This is the whole point you are missing. Not everyone wants what Jeff is willing and able to teach. Despite the fact that they would end up more well rounded musicians if they did. For some, a course of study that is heavy on technique and light on theory is the ticket.

Being honest to myself I admint that I thought quite similar - not just in the beginning, but even until a couple of hours.
Like different needs, and someone might want to learn harmony theory and so on.

Until I watched this - feel free to skip to 8:00 to get to the point (though before he nicely and clearly explains the motivation of his criticism):

 

[JeffBerlin]

Because value is not an absolute. If the person paying for a particular instruction is getting what they want from it, its of value to them.

I agree with you! What I am trying to tell people is that in learning well, what they want for the most part doesn't matter. What they get, does!

 

[JeffBerlin]

That might be true but so what? Tuning a guitar is a purely technical exercise. Anyone can be taught to do it without any other knowledge of musical theory or how to play. It was the first thing I learned when I took my first guitar lesson back in the stone age.

Can you expand about your view of what happened in music education in the period that you refer to as the stone age? What do you think went down back then in music education that isn's just as meaningful today?

 

[5thsand4ths]

For anyone who missed this: How Were Musicians Taught For Decades?

Why have another thread? Honestly, Jeff discusses one topic and one topic only. Every thread can be rolled into one.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

This is when the magic of chromatics come into play though! Don't forget to check the down beats (1,2,3,4), a note placed anywhere else might simply just be moving to another chord tone, it could be completely out of key and be fine! Look at the song I mentioned earlier, "Chameleon", for a wonderful example of this!

I type out loud, that last sentence got me...

Thanks so much - listening to this, now, after so many years, feels as if the sun was shining on a warm summer day, and my practice mood turns to happily sunny, as well. I'll incorporate that as warming-up on gray winter days - before practicing Slayer

 

[JeffBerlin]

Why have another thread? Honestly, Jeff discusses one topic and one topic only. Every thread can be rolled into one.

You are right! I thought that it might be good to start this with another title that might attract new people to the chat. I should add that I only discuss one topic because barely anyone asks me questions that might lead to other topics and thoughts. People here prefer to state their opinions. New subject matter doesn't show up here much at all.