Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. Just my observation.
I'm not a frequent visitor at the "Ask a Pro!" forum but here is an interesting thing.
I've checked some other "Ask a Pro!" professional musicians' thread and here is my finding.

Almost NO answers from those "Ask a Pro!" pros.
Ex.: "What level of skill should I have when using your courses?"
It's a question for Janek Gwizdala.
Who has answered that question?

Green1,
and
JimmyM

Let's check another thread from the same "domain".
"Newbie looking for help!".
Who were those brave "first responders" - Baltimore Bass, Ricky T, PaulaBass.
Do you know where I'm going?

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Here is Jeff Berlin live playing from 1984.
Jazz in Concert in Switzerland. Klaus Doldinger (sax), Alphonse Mouzon (dr), Trilok Gurtu (perc) and Peter Ponger (key).
(Jeff's solo is around 0:56.)
Before one starts watching the video, I'd like to ask a question,
"What does it mean the bass-line as a second melody?"
Maybe, let's add another question.
What a TB member knows about Musical Phrases?

Let's check on the Internet.
Read here: Musical Phrases Unleashead | Art of Composing
(It's an interesting description.)
"What is a musical sentence? In its most simplest sense, the musical sentence is an 8 measure theme, that consists of two different phrases. Each phrase accomplishes different formal functions. The overall purpose of a sentence is to help establish a tonality and to present the basic material that a composition is made of. The music sentence is a vehicle for presenting your ideas. It accomplishes the “formal functions” of presentation, continuation and cadential.

The archetypal sentence, consists of two, 4 bar phrases. These are the presentation phrase, and continuation phrase. Contained within the continuation phrase, is the cadence..."

Now, using that impromptu-acquired knowledge, let's try to see/hear/envision Jeff's musical phrasing during his solo from here:



P.S. If anyone is "strong" enough, please check other bass players' musical phrasing.

Cool example. Just like to add that phrases and phrasing are not the same, as far as I understand; phrasing is more than formal functions. (I think) you are right that phrases would be like... don't know the words; grammatic blocks? - whereas phrasing would mean how to play the phrase; how to start, hold and end it - and each note within the phrase. Like a composer / conductor / interpreter would try to teach me the feeling that the phrase is intended to stimulate and how to articulate it; far more detailed and beyond harmonic functions such as "tension" or "release" - more like "how sudden and intense or smooth to release" and how that all connects the whole phrase(s).
Did I remember that correctly? If not, please give me a hint.
Again, thanks for the example!

 

[J_Bass]

P.S. Just my observation.
I'm not a frequent visitor at the "Ask a Pro!" forum but here is an interesting thing.
I've checked some other "Ask a Pro!" professional musicians' thread and here is my finding.

Almost NO answers from those "Ask a Pro!" pros.
Ex.: "What level of skill should I have when using your courses?"
It's a question for Janek Gwizdala.
Who has answered that question?

Green1,
and
JimmyM

Let's check another thread from the same "domain".
"Newbie looking for help!".
Who were those brave "first responders" - Baltimore Bass, Ricky T, PaulaBass.
Do you know where I'm going?

Not only that, Justin Meldal-Johnson used to participate, but the trolls pushed him out.

 

[gln1955]

I'll be short.
I used to say, "You judge musicians by their performances". "You judge talkers by their talking(s )".
Now.
Let's do an experiment and magically place Jeff Berlin and a TB member (who is ardently arguing(!!!) with Jeff Berlin) on the same stage with a good/very good drum player, a guitar player, etc..., and tell them , "Let's Play."
What should we play?
ANYTHING.
Now, could you predict what would happen?
I think you do!

Next.
Here is a youtube video where a GOOD bass player is trying to keep up with Jeff Berlin while playing along with Groovin' High.
(And here is the poster's comment about it,
"Here's my attempt at this monster solo by Jeff Berlin from the High Standards record. Total bitch to keep up with. Monster."

P.S. Don't you worry. I will NOT(!) ask you to transcribe Jeff's solo ( One of THOUSANDS(!), with his pent-up ability to immediate produce as much/as many (solos) as you want, with any kind of chord changes.
P.S.2. Please continue your arguments about learning to play the bass guitar...

I haven't seen one person arguing that Jeff isn't a monster player. That's a given. Now, just because someone is a great player and a master of the theory underlying their playing does not make him a great teacher. Now I'll say that Jeff might be the perfect teacher for many people, but not for others. I believe any really good teacher will realize that not all of there students learn the same way or have the same goals. There is simply no reason to take the dogmatic stand that all bass training must do this, this and this.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Cool example. Just like to add that phrases and phrasing are not the same, as far as I understand; phrasing is more than formal functions. (I think) you are right that phrases would be like... don't know the words; grammatic blocks? - whereas phrasing would mean how to play the phrase; how to start, hold and end it - and each note within the phrase. Like a composer / conductor / interpreter would try to teach me the feeling that the phrase is intended to stimulate and how to articulate it; far more detailed and beyond harmonic functions such as "tension" or "release" - more like "how sudden and intense or smooth to release" and how that all connects the whole phrase(s).
Did I remember that correctly? If not, please give me a hint.
Again, thanks for the example!

Thanks for your comment.
I use the word, "phrasing" as
1. the act of forming phrases.
2. a manner or method of forming phrases; phraseology.
3. (Music.) the grouping of the notes of a musical line into distinct phrases.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

There is simply no reason to take the dogmatic stand that all bass training must do this, this and this.

But... isn't that the reason why he started this thread? To put his opinion into discussion?
So, I would expect him to be the one defending "his truth" - in order to put it on to test.
I do not really understand this thread as an urge to enforce me to accept his view.
Rather I see it as invitation to discuss it and bring up some counter arguments - except that I can't

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Thanks for your comment.
I use the word, "phrasing" as
1. the act of forming phrases.
2. a manner or method of forming phrases; phraseology.
3. (Music.) the grouping of the notes of a musical line into distinct phrases.

That clarifies it - thank you!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Cool example. Just like to add that phrases and phrasing are not the same, as far as I understand; phrasing is more than formal functions. (I think) you are right that phrases would be like... don't know the words; grammatic blocks? - whereas phrasing would mean how to play the phrase; how to start, hold and end it - and each note within the phrase. Like a composer / conductor / interpreter would try to teach me the feeling that the phrase is intended to stimulate and how to articulate it; far more detailed and beyond harmonic functions such as "tension" or "release" - more like "how sudden and intense or smooth to release" and how that all connects the whole phrase(s).
Did I remember that correctly? If not, please give me a hint.
Again, thanks for the example!

I can definitely go along with this. Phrase is the measure being played itself, phrasing is how you articulate that measure.

I will add though, that note choice can reflect tension/release as much as how one articulates a phrase can. A well articulated phrase that only hits the root note can be just a funky or jazzy as say a 7#9 chord based line played very evenly. Jamey Aebersold's book "How To Play Jazz And Improvise", while I disagree with how much of the information is laid out (and some of the information in general), the section that covers the various types of tensions and releases and how one can combine these to build up to one huge resolution/conclusion is very interesting. Kinda reminded me of grade school when we were first learning how short stories were formed.

Edit: I wanted to add this also, but didn't have enough time to get a picture.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I can definitely go along with this. Phrase is the measure being played itself, phrasing is how you articulate that measure.

Agreed. I understand that is what @Whousedtoplay meant with formal function.

Kinda reminded me of grade school when we were first learning how short stories were formed.View attachment 2866209

Yes, me too
Actually, our middle school teacher tought us basic understanding of this with programmatic music, such as Smetana's The Moldau. And at least for classical / romantical music, it always felt to me like reading a story or watching a movie; I literally saw pictures popping up in my mind. That's why I was fascinated by it even as young child without knowing to appreciate the skills behind those compositions; just the effects.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

There is simply no reason to take the dogmatic stand that all bass training must do this, this and this.

There are a few aspects in your statement.
(We see what we want to see.)
Here is how I understand the gist of Jeff Berlin’s idea.
Why would you pay money (sometimes, a lot of money) for lessons/courses that have almost no value?

 

[Downsman]

I've probably done more to finally learn all the notes on the fretboard in the past few days, inspired by Jeff's posts, than I have since taking up the bass. And I'm doing that by playing chord tones through the circle of fifths (one of Jeff's ideas I saw on here somewhere), so learning those in the process. Which I know will help me with jamming new songs someone might bring to rehearsal where all I know is the chord progression, or even just the key. Some of the patterns, like a Cmaj7 chord I already know and can play very quickly. Others I need to really slow down to both figure out the note names and positions. It'll take a while, but I feel confident I'll get to where I want to be.

I mention the slowing down and speeding up bit because these posts have also really made me think about metronomes. I could have been someone to argue Jeff's wrong about those. I did an online course aimed at teaching rhythm. Explaining the subdivisions of the One ee and uh Two ee and uh etc. Getting used to stressing the different beats. And he did this using a metronome. And my understanding of rhythm improved. So I could have said a metronome was helpful and Jeff is wrong. But then I've been thinking about it. What did the metronome actually add for me? Stress. I hated the pressure of trying to keep up with it while wrapping my head around uh Two instead of and Two. My hands got sweaty, my heartbeat raced, my anxiety levels rose as I kept "failing" and having to start over. I took ages to finish the course because I didn't enjoy it. Looking back on it, I feel I could have learned all that stuff without the click. While I was figuring it out who cares if I slowed down at times and sped up at others. The instructor had us tapping our feet and slapping our knees at the same time to track the subdivisions, so what exactly did the metronome add in getting a feel for the difference between the uh relative to the and? Once I figured that out, I could then start hearing it when listening to recordings of the songs, then playing along to them, then playing that same song in my band. I also haven't used a metronome since, now that I think about it.

I don't know if I have a point, maybe it's just to say that if you don't know about something, then do something to learn about it, then know about it afterwards, it doesn't necessarily follow that everything you did to learn it was the best way. Or even the best way for you. The only way you could know for sure is to go back and try to learn the same thing another way. But you can't because you've already learned it. If that makes sense.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Now, let’s look at the essence of all those (paradoxical in my opinion) statements about Jeff Berlin’s “dogmatic” approach to learning the bass guitar.
I have demonstrated that Jeff Berlin ‘s teaching method is very similar /akin to any standardized academic teaching method; therefore, we should say,
“I don’t like the standard academic teaching method, which is too dogmatic.”
Next.
You started taking lessons from a teacher X and you have instructed X to teach you only (!) this (please include/insert all your wishes here.)
To me - it’s You who are dogmatic!
A question.
Which example of Dogma is worse for you?

P.S. I have used the word “dogmatic” while talking about the academic/Jeff Berlin method only for this comment. I don’t reckon it as Dogmatic. Please be advised.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I've probably done more to finally learn all the notes on the fretboard in the past few days, inspired by Jeff's posts, than I have since taking up the bass. And I'm doing that by playing chord tones through the circle of fifths (one of Jeff's ideas I saw on here somewhere), so learning those in the process. Which I know will help me with jamming new songs someone might bring to rehearsal where all I know is the chord progression, or even just the key. Some of the patterns, like a Cmaj7 chord I already know and can play very quickly. Others I need to really slow down to both figure out the note names and positions. It'll take a while, but I feel confident I'll get to where I want to be.

Keep at it! I always like to think about how people would view a pianist who didn't know his seventh chords and various inversions through the circle of fifths up and down the keyboard, probably not very well.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

I would have a lot of questions about your post, but I just wonder why an English teacher is arguing with an accomplished and world-known Jazz, Rock musician, composer, arranger, bass player, ..., plus time-certified and Classically-educated bass guitar teacher...

Because the topic of this thread is specifically about teaching and learning (which a high school English teacher has generally devoted their career to developing expertise in), not about whether or not Jeff is a great player.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Because the topic of this thread is specifically about teaching and learning (which a high school English teacher has generally devoted their career to developing expertise in), not about whether or not Jeff is a great player.

Cool!
Now, is there a difference between teaching a soldier how to shoot and teaching a child English?
How much the Marine Corps Sergeant could advice the English teacher?
Both are involved in a teaching process.

 

[fdeck]

How does this compare to the original method of learning math that for so long has been proven effective? What actually is the effectiveness of this new method, and has there been any ways to measure it's success up to this point?

One measure would be the level of math comptency in the general population. By this measure, math education in the schools is a disaster, and always has been.

Is this germane to bass education? That depends. Is it a problem that the majority of people who try to learn music, give it up?

 

[FantasticFour]

So I could have said a metronome was helpful and Jeff is wrong. But then I've been thinking about it. What did the metronome actually add for me? Stress. I hated the pressure of trying to keep up with it while wrapping my head around uh Two instead of and Two. My hands got sweaty, my heartbeat raced, my anxiety levels rose as I kept "failing" and having to start over. I took ages to finish the course because I didn't enjoy it. Looking back on it, I feel I could have learned all that stuff without the click. While I was figuring it out who cares if I slowed down at times and sped up at others. .

I have a similar experience.
I always take exercices from the "Patterns for Jazz" book, which I quite like. Up to now I did it with a metronome, partly out of habit (metronome was big in my classical education though we would only use it for exercices, never for real playing), partly because the book gives precise tempos and I'm the kind of person who'll do as instructed unless I have valid proof it's wrong.
But when I look back on what this book has given me so far, it's mostly physical help (more stamina, fingers staying closer to the board, etc). What it doesn't give me is better knowledge of the board, although that's what the exercices are designed for, making you go up and down following cycle of fifths, full tone scales and such. Why? Because I don't have the time to think about it. Why don't I have time to think about it? Yup. That's 'it'.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I haven't seen one person arguing that Jeff isn't a monster player. That's a given. Now, just because someone is a great player and a master of the theory underlying their playing does not make him a great teacher.

This is an excellent point.

A good teacher in my view teaches what one needs to improve in the subject they chose to learn about. The best, if not the only proven way to accomplish this while under the care of a person that you have hired to help you with this is to give you music to practice. In this thinking, I, and other bass teachers like me are the finest teachers to learn from because we know how to identify the places of inconsistency in people's playing. My teacher, the late Charlie Banacos was a master at this. And, like a doctor, we have the prescription that will "cure" the problem.

People should realize that your improvement is entirely on us. We are responsible for your outcome because you paid us to be. But you have to fulfill your end of the bargain and practice what we give you. In a nutshell, if you aren't improving as a bass player in a two months, fire us and find someone else.

I believe that where you and other people are misled is because you confuse principles of learning that sound correct with solutions of learn that actually are. There are practically no bass players who have been as trained in music as I have been. I am no better than anyone else. I am not a better bass player than anyone else. But, I have been taught by more of the world's top teachers than almost anyone else and because I know what everyone, no matter their style of music or their goals needs, I try to convey this to you.

You need to be able to play with freedom your own ideas or you need to play the ideas that come from someone else. There are no other jobs that playing the bass demands from us. It's so simple, and so narrow a truth.

If you compare the study of harmonic shifting, approach notes from above and below or representing a major scale by using two triads to spell it out with being told that you are always a couple of frets from a right note or using blindfolds helps you to hear better or crossing strings with no musical reason will benefit your bass playing, I have to state that you and others are missing what learning the bass is all about. Here is the answer:

It is about getting people to play the bass better by using the real tools of music which is music itself. It isn't about gigs, locking with drummers, groove, feel, spirit, chops, styles, slap, or anything that we all can learn one our own. I know that this is true because in bass history, every well know bass player has accomplished these skills and then some and never paid $10,000 tuition money at a school to learn how. Nor did the teachers of these concepts learn them from a teacher-for-pay. They were all self taught or, if you prefer, in total charge to accept or reject the the advise they were taught by others as we all were taught in bands and from people sharing advise. The difference is that the advise being offered wasn't paid for and there was no reason to adhere to it if we didn't wish to.

Teaching is mostly about enlightening people in the fact and function of the content of your chosen field. Few people here can tune their guitar by ear. I believe that this requires thinking about.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Because the topic of this thread is specifically about teaching and learning (which a high school English teacher has generally devoted their career to developing expertise in), not about whether or not Jeff is a great player.

Please provide a/any example that Jeff Berlin as a teacher doesn’t see/hear the different levels of knowledge, abilities, etc... between his students.

 

[JeffBerlin]

It doesn't seem to be such a disaster that people can't add and subtract. Everyone can do this so math education at its basic level seems to have fulfilled its job. I don't know about higher aspects of math because I've personally never taken an interest in it. So I don't know if teaching math in this country is a disaster or not.