Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[JeffBerlin]

The very basics for a career in serious science, say math through basic calculus, classical physics, general chemistry and fundamental biological structure and function might be seen as the equivalent of the musical theory elements of harmony and rhythm. Everybody should learn this stuff, but they do not necessarily do it in the same manner or to the same extent.

For example, my kids learned basic math via a very different methodology than I did in the 60's. We can all solve math problems, but they go about it differently than I do. As far as science ed at the high school, college or professional school level, the same content might be taught using traditional lectures and homework or by a variety of independent or group learning strategies. Are any of these methods better than others? Probably some are better for some students and not for others. Depends on the student's learning style, level of motivation and goals.

I see your point here as well.

If the strategy has changed, teaching mathematical principles to your kids or being taught fundamental biological structures still requires that the content be taught as a primary goal. This is my only point.

One thought to share is that a student's goals don't matter for the most part. No matter what goals a bass player has, they still have to learn how to identify the notes and play them on the fretboard.

The teaching methods don't matter and are not brought up by me if music is entirely the core of what is being taught. But, in a large part of bass education, music isn't even assigned. Songs and performance principles are. You might agree that learning how to turn on a Bunson Burner doesn't make you a very good scientist if you don't know what to use the burner for. This is the core of my complaint with bass education; it appears to teach people the technique for turning on a Bunsen Burner but doesn't teach them what it is for. Thanks for your amazing insight.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

For example, my kids learned basic math via a very different methodology than I did in the 60's.

Oh yes, very good example! I've been shown that in my old school they now also learn a Chinese method of dividing numbers using pen & paper - totally different than I learned it and magnitudes faster. Felt like cheating to me, at first Similar to being told "You don't need to learn scales, learn chords, they get you there faster." But if it does the job, I could hardly argue it would be wrong.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

It was Harvey Mason whose time sucked. I often refer to Chameleon as an example of how songs on record used to move before clicks became standard - and how it didn't matter as long as it felt musical. Of course, most songs now are not fifteen minutes long and do not contain what basically amounts to three movements...

Depends on your genre!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

That's an interesting question. Honestly, I don't think it would have changed anything, but it's very hard to say. Does that tempo increase add a special sauce that makes it vibe better or more intensely?

I'd say, maybe... It lets you know that everyone was at least very much "in the moment" when they did the original recording though, that's for sure.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Yes, but the entire body benefits, strength and balance are both affected.

Music is more like growing up or love than the shortest way to get from Chicago to New York. A constant process, with many factors involved, not just one exact series of steps; with constant adjustments and learning along the way.

Or is it?

 

[J_Bass]

That's an interesting question. Honestly, I don't think it would have changed anything, but it's very hard to say. Does that tempo increase add a special sauce that makes it vibe better or more intensely?

I think it does, after the "second movement", it makes sense that the last part is quicker. I thought it was on purpose, because in the beginning it starts very simple, very cool, relaxing. Then, the second part brings another vibe, relaxing, but not sleeping. The last part of the second part brings anticipation and all the band becomes more nervous, more tense. And then it explodes on the third part, same riff as the first, but completely different vibe, different drums, more energetic! It's a special one, I LOVE that tune!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I've posted a few tempo variation diagrams in the past.
(From other TB threads.)

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One more.
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I tried to play that video more times than I'd like to admit...

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Music is more like growing up or love than the shortest way to get from Chicago to New York.

My inner voice so much likes to agree! While I fear this might be more a wish than truth.
Maybe it also depends what one understands as "music" and what the aims are.
If aiming at a career, I guess it becomes most likely less romantic in reality than I imagine - and I wouldn't be surprised if it was "just" like going from A to B by foot - without any magic. Even magical ideas might rather distract from the path to success as pop musician, for example. Rather sticking to what works, and keep the surprises until independent enough to afford confronting the audience (and industry) with them? Might be reasonable in order to survive

 

[JeffBerlin]

Oh yes, very good example! I've been shown that in my old school they now also learn a Chinese method of dividing numbers using pen & paper - totally different than I learned it and magnitudes faster. Felt like cheating to me, at first Similar to being told "You don't need to learn scales, learn chords, they get you there faster." But if it does the job, I could hardly argue it would be wrong.

If anyone states that their teaching will get one to play faster, they are exhibiting a lack of understand of what constitutes quality teaching. You can't speed up learning which is why pushing time with a metronome isn't helpful in learning a fast line more quickly either.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Oh yes, very good example! I've been shown that in my old school they now also learn a Chinese method of dividing numbers using pen & paper - totally different than I learned it and magnitudes faster. Felt like cheating to me, at first Similar to being told "You don't need to learn scales, learn chords, they get you there faster." But if it does the job, I could hardly argue it would be wrong.

I remember my sophomore year of high school, any student that wasn't currently enrolled in an "advanced" math class (Algebra II, Trig, or Pre-Calc at my school, and thank God I had the former class) were transferred into the "new" math classes. These were to be called Math I, II, III, and "College Prep Math". I was never so dumbfounded in my life, and never so distasteful when I realized majority of what was being taught in these classes really just revolved around preparing these students for a life in the work force (breaking change, figuring tax percentages, and so on).

 

[Michael Schreiber]

If anyone states that their teaching will get one to play faster, they are exhibiting a lack of understand of what constitutes learning. You can't speed it up which is why pushing time with a metronome isn't helpful in learning a fast line more quickly.

That's not what I tried to say - it was not about teaching to play faster; it was rather about a different method or technique that enables arriving quicker at the goal. As for example, when I want to improvise, I might be quicker when thinking in chords instead of scales.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

That's not what I tried to say - it was not about teaching to play faster; it was rather about a different method or technique that enables arriving quicker at the goal. As for example, when I want to improvise, I might be quicker when thinking in chords instead of scales.

I's say it'd probably sound more appropriate at least. Though if one were to play something like a fully voiced thirteenth chord, the two may be somewhat hard to distinguish (granted a thirteenth chord would probably never be played in a position that goes straight up and down a mixolydian scale).

 

[PJMustangFreak]

If anyone states that their teaching will get one to play faster, they are exhibiting a lack of understand of what constitutes quality teaching. You can't speed up learning which is why pushing time with a metronome isn't helpful in learning a fast line more quickly either.

As a high school English teacher, I can say with 100% certainty that you can speed up learning with the right techniques.
You mention "quality" teaching. Can you elaborate?
Also, pushing playing "in time" with a metronome may not be helpful in learning a fast line more quickly, but it's certainly helpful in learning a fast line correctly, which ought to be the goal.

Listen, I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but between the vague educational claims, flawed and contradictory instructional "philosophy," and opinion disguised as fact, it is completely understandable that so many TBers appear confused, argumentative, and skeptical. JeffBerlin, you have a method. Your method works. I'd stick to the "meat and potatoes" of your method and leave behind the parable-esque and sometimes incomprehensible claims and instructional philosophy. I want to value what you have to say, but the "bass guru" speak is off-putting.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I's say it'd probably sound more appropriate at least. Though if one were to play something like a fully voiced thirteenth chord, the two may be somewhat hard to distinguish (granted a thirteenth chord would never be played in a position that goes straight up and down a mixolydian scale).

OK, I have not yet arrived at thirteenth chord country
So far, I am glad I can consider third and seventh chords as starting point for quick orientation - then breaking out as I feel it right on occasion. Which, to me affords much more courage than to stick to a "safe" pattern. Since I still lack the theoretic knowledge behind that, it is mostly trial and error. And that is one point I seek to learn to understand. So far, I only used some of my favorite Beethoven's scores to get an idea where and why he broke out of a scale, for example. The way he does it seems random at first, but feels musically right to me. Maybe he did that based on feeling alone - or there is a pattern behind, of which I haven't heard, yet. In terms of theory, I am not even at high school level, because I only kept in my brain what I was using - the rest faded with time. So I wouldn't be surprised if I already had heard about such a pattern and then forgot it

 

[Whousedtoplay]

As a high school English teacher, I can say with 100% certainty that you can speed up learning with the right techniques.
You mention "quality" teaching. Can you elaborate?
Also, pushing playing "in time" with a metronome may not be helpful in learning a fast line more quickly, but it's certainly helpful in learning a fast line correctly, which ought to be the goal.

Listen, I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but between the vague educational claims, flawed and contradictory instructional "philosophy," and opinion disguised as fact, it is completely understandable that so many TBers appear confused, argumentative, and skeptical. JeffBerlin, you have a method. Your method works. I'd stick to the "meat and potatoes" of your method and leave behind the parable-esque and sometimes incomprehensible claims and instructional philosophy. I want to value what you have to say, but the "bass guru" speak is off-putting.

I would have a lot of questions about your post, but I just wonder why an English teacher is arguing with an accomplished and world-known Jazz, Rock musician, composer, arranger, bass player, ..., plus time-certified and Classically-educated bass guitar teacher...

 

[PJMustangFreak]

I would have a lot of questions about your post, but I just wonder why an English teacher is arguing with an accomplished and world-known Jazz, Rock musician, composer, arranger, bass player, ..., plus time-certified and Classically-educated bass guitar teacher...

Why, you ask? If you read my post and are still asking why, I cannot help you.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Listen, I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but between the vague educational claims, flawed and contradictory instructional "philosophy," and opinion disguised as fact, it is completely understandable that so many TBers appear confused, argumentative, and skeptical. JeffBerlin, you have a method. Your method works. I'd stick to the "meat and potatoes" of your method and leave behind the parable-esque and sometimes incomprehensible claims and instructional philosophy. I want to value what you have to say, but the "bass guru" speak is off-putting.

To my mind, he's much clearer and going more into detail in interviews, like the one @Whousedtoplay linked, or this one I came across, yesterday:
Jeff Berlin: Still the Ace of Bass

Really helped me to get more info and understanding.
Here's Whousedtoplay's post:

Let's borrow from NoTreble a podcast - Groove - The No Treble podcast#14 Jeff Berlin.
It's a long conversation but interesting.

 

[PJMustangFreak]

To my mind, he's much clearer and going more into detail in interviews, like the one @Whousedtoplay linked, or this one I came across, yesterday:
Jeff Berlin: Still the Ace of Bass

Really helped me to get more info and understanding.
Here's Whousedtoplay's post:

I'll have to check them out. I guess that trying to articulate the complexities of bass instruction isn't best served forum-style.

 

[Trayster2]

I really believe that music schools that teach the electric bass are more entertainment than educational. If anyone wishes to know how to learn the bass correctly in a school or with a teacher, find a bass teacher that teaches as a trumpet, violin, or saxophone teacher does.

I like this statement. I was a French Horn player as a kid and still remember how my band teacher taught me. I've recently hit the method book and began from scratch, this time reading bass notation, and working through in chunks the way my band teacher taught me.

 

[gln1955]

I would have a lot of questions about your post, but I just wonder why an English teacher is arguing with an accomplished and world-known Jazz, Rock musician, composer, arranger, bass player, ..., plus time-certified and Classically-educated bass guitar teacher...

By that logic very few of us would be allowed to participate in this thread.