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Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

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I've got a few minutes, so I want to tell my metronome story. What better place to do it :). For those who might be interested...

I started out on guitar, not bass. My first serious band was a progressive type punk band that jammed - a lot. That taught me a great deal about harmony, notes, melodies, scales, what works and what doesn't. I got some excellent training there, and learned a lot, by ear and a few basics the bassist would point out. Future cover bands and learning tunes to back up other original artists added to that, but yeah... the metronome...

Somewhere around 1990 I was asked to join an alternative group some friends had formed. But they wanted me to play bass. I liked the guys and the music, so I was up for the challenge. The guitarist in that band was an educated musician, and HUGE Rush fan. I was a punk. We clashed, a lot. But we felt some sort of magic between us, so we started having these flash and smash weekly meetings. He would teach me some theory and technique, I'd teach him about playing with emotion. Strangely enough, HE was the one who suggested using a metronome to me. We jammed a lot in this band, too, and I wasn't the tightest bass player at that time. I took the suggestion. I started doing a variety of exercises with a metronome.

I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this has to do with coincidence. When I started practicing with the clicks, we also had a bit of a band hiatus. I got to work with this for about a month before hitting the studio again, and when we did, I was blown away. I had a very clear sense of my fingers now being on auto pilot. We were fortunate to have a drummer who had excellent timing, and now everything I did was locking in perfectly with him. I was able to jam, do what I wanted, and have it fit in effortlessly! That made me a fan. I spent the next several months doing lots of different metronome exercises, and I feel it's had an enormous effect on my playing. Especially on my improvising. It seems to have trained my brain to function more accurately under pressure. I believe completely that it helped me to think faster, as well as improve my timing and listening.

And then there's this. Prior to working with a metronome I couldn't count off the seconds to a minute. Tried and failed. When I was actively practicing with a metronome I had little problem doing that. Perhaps that could be a test for people who are on the fence about what to believe here. See how well you can count off a minute without using a clock (you can use it to get the tempo, but then look away), and then practice consistently for a month with a metronome and give it a go again. That might supply the "scientific proof" some people need in order to believe something is true.

I don't use a metronome any more for the above purposes, though I do still use one from time to time. Gonna guess that keeps me in tune. But I think there is another great use for metronomes that hasn't been brought up. I am often confronted with bass lines that are out of my playing ability. Once I learn the notes, VERY MUCH OUT OF TIME, I practice them super slowly to a click. I raise the click a notch every few minutes, do it until I start flubbing, and then give it a rest. When I return I repeat the process. What happens by doing that is my muscle memory kicks and then suddenly I wake up one morning playing whatever it was I was struggling with as though I was playing it my entire life. While there are probably other methods of achieving the same goal, I don't know of any that are more efficient.

Back to the real world.
 
I love the fact that the original recording of "Chameleon" ends 30bpm faster than it started. We gonna say the Herb man had not time or groove?

He might have done it on purpose ;-) I know I didn't, nor did I want to, nor did anyone like it. I actually read that Stewart Copeland purposely accelerated throughout a whole song, but I doubt it was that much. Brings up another debate about whether a click track is even musical, but I'm not going to open that can of worms ;-)

On your previous post, I was thinking something similar. As I sat here listening to the music my daughter was playing while she did her makeup, I realized there was no bass guitar in it. The bassline was played with a tom sample that changed pitch. In this changing world, I'm not sure the mechanics of playing any instrument is really a good bet for success. So yeah, I think the more you know about music in general, the better. Same is true in other employment: a general education vs knowing how to run a certain machine (or the like). Nothing wrong with either, but general ed. might often be a better long-term bet (not for me, I've made less in every successive job I've had).
 
In short, Jeff states that metronome use for helping people’s timing is a myth. Using a metronome has helped my timing. That makes only 2 things possible. Either Jeff is wrong, or I’m a liar.

I’m not a liar.

PS. I didn’t read the rest of your post because I don’t have time right now.

I haven't been active here long, but this reminds of a recent reaction to something I wrote which surprised me. Being a fan of the Precision bass, I contributed to a thread called "Is the Precision the perfect bass?" (or something to that effect). I wrote that I think it is and why.

I found that I unwittingly stepped into a small landmine when someone took my opinion to mean that I was saying that their bass wasn't "perfect". Strictly speaking, your reductive logic could be used to justify a person taking offense at my opinion--that is if one were looking to find offense.

I have found that each forum has its own culture and sore spots. One has to hang around awhile to figure it out. Perhaps I'm more open to listening to Jeff's opinions because I'm unaware of his past. I just assume "IMO" since that should be self evident without having to preface each declarative sentence with it. He has his own department here on the Forum now. Of course it's his thoughts and opinions. I take him at his word to feel free to disregard what doesn't hold true in my experience. Or just use it as food for thought.
 
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Playing with a metronome doesn't need to make you metronomic. You can play with the exact tempo, learn the rules, and then break those rules when you play live. Do both, they aren't mutually exclusive. I don't think it's a question of either or.
If you use weights, you are using them for only one reason, to build up your muscles. When you use a metronome, you are using it for only one reason, to develop your sense of time. No one uses a metronome for any other reason unless there's no drummer around.
 
I love the fact that the original recording of "Chameleon" ends 30bpm faster than it started. We gonna say the Herb man had not time or groove?
It was Harvey Mason whose time sucked. ;) I often refer to Chameleon as an example of how songs on record used to move before clicks became standard - and how it didn't matter as long as it felt musical. Of course, most songs now are not fifteen minutes long and do not contain what basically amounts to three movements... :D
 
If you use weights, you are using them for only one reason, to build up your muscles. When you use a metronome, you are using it for only one reason, to develop your sense of time. No one uses a metronome for any other reason unless there's no drummer around.
LOL. Yep. I was lying again. Apologies for that.
 
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I haven't been active here long, but this reminds of a recent reaction to something I wrote which surprised me. Being a fan of the Precision bass, I contributed to a thread called "Is the Precision the perfect bass?" (or something to that effect). I wrote that I think it is and why.

I found that I unwittingly stepped into a small landmine when someone took my opinion to mean that I was saying that their bass wasn't "perfect". Strictly speaking, your reductive logic could be used to justify a person taking offense at my opinion--that is if one were looking to find offense.

I have found that each forum has its own culture and sore spots. One has to hang around awhile to figure it out. Perhaps I'm more open to listening to Jeff's opinions because I'm unaware of his past. I just assume "IMO" since that should be self evident without having to preface each declarative sentence with it. He has his own department here on the Forum now. Of course it's his thoughts and opinions. I take him at his word to feel free to disregard what doesn't hold true in my experience. Or just use it as food for thought.
My past was combative! The attitudes that many exhibit here are based upon my past behavior and I accept this. I earned it and have to try to make up for it.

Still, as with the person that wrote this post, he ran into a beehive because of the oversensitivity that some people on Talkbass exhibit if they deem that someone violated their idea of how to conduct oneself when contributing a post. If I work to correct my manner of interacting with people here, why not do the same thing from your side of the computer.
 
So many guitar players, including me, hit the wall when it comes to modes. We learn the minor pentatonic scale and get stuck after that. Bass seems worse to me. I welcome learning bass the way Jeff says is 500 years old. LOL!
Modes are one of the more overrated academic musical principles to practice. They have been given way more publicity as a beneficial academic principle than they deserve. They are no more or less important than any other point of harmony. This might explain why you hit a wall when practicing them; there's only so far you can go in learning how they work.
 
I also have to add that it's an absolute fact that most of the things people are stating as "facts" about education and psychology are not facts. Marzano is a trend, before him it was somebody else, and in a few years no one will care about Marzano. Piaget, meet Skinner. Skinner, meet David Rumelhart, Posner, etc. Education and Psychology are VERY immature fields. There's still an awful lot of room for "opinion".

So true. My background is as a working university biomedical scientist, a field that is a bit more soft than say phsyics or chemistry, but still uses sound scientific methods to test hypotheses and such. Over the years, I've become more involved in the teaching end of my profession and have delved into educational research. What a different world! So much of educational theory and current teaching trends are based on biased experimentation or simply the loudest voice in the room. One thing that has become apparent over my carrer is that there is no "one size fits all" approach to learning. The strong opinions expressed in this thread simply bear witness to the weakness of such a dogmatic approach to teaching as expressed by the OP.
 
It was Harvey Mason whose time sucked. ;) I often refer to Chameleon as an example of how songs on record used to move before clicks became standard - and how it didn't matter as long as it felt musical. Of course, most songs now are not fifteen minutes long and do not contain what basically amounts to three movements... :D

Yeah. And it's something you don't notice until you start working on the song. and then you are like, jeeze these guys are cruising on this song.

If my memory serves, Coltrane's "Mr. PC" is another song that speeds up a lot, but I think at one point they realize it and they pull it way back in, or either it's some kind of punch in. I needs to listen to it again, since it's been awhile.
 
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It’s about communication

Can we / are communicating in context of playing, practicing and performing with others

We can already play our basses;assuredly some better than others

If you can casually explain your musical ideas with your fellow musicians without reading a note or comprehending modes .... well enough but when you have an opportunity to play with trained musicians who understand the language of music then perhaps you’ll feel defensive or inadequate and hopefully we are inspired to ask and learn at least I do

I prefer to be the lesser musician in a group so I remain positively challenged and inspired Otherwise I need to share what I know and hopefully inspire without being intimidating
 
So true. My background is as a working university biomedical scientist, a field that is a bit more soft than say phsyics or chemistry, but still uses sound scientific methods to test hypotheses and such. Over the years, I've become more involved in the teaching end of my profession and have delved into educational research. What a different world! So much of educational theory and current teaching trends are based on biased experimentation or simply the loudest voice in the room. One thing that has become apparent over my carrer is that there is no "one size fits all" approach to learning. The strong opinions expressed in this thread simply bear witness to the weakness of such a dogmatic approach to teaching as expressed by the OP.

Yeah, it's a mess (add fashion into your list), but rather than saying everyone is right, I'd be more inclined to say people need to be a little less sure of themselves, in general. If there's something more complex in this world than the human brain, I don't know what it would be.
 
Just imagine how that composition would have sounded if one of those excellent musicians had tried to stop that "emotional tempo increase".

That's an interesting question. Honestly, I don't think it would have changed anything, but it's very hard to say. Does that tempo increase add a special sauce that makes it vibe better or more intensely?
 
So true. My background is as a working university biomedical scientist, a field that is a bit more soft than say phsyics or chemistry, but still uses sound scientific methods to test hypotheses and such. Over the years, I've become more involved in the teaching end of my profession and have delved into educational research. What a different world! So much of educational theory and current teaching trends are based on biased experimentation or simply the loudest voice in the room. One thing that has become apparent over my carrer is that there is no "one size fits all" approach to learning. The strong opinions expressed in this thread simply bear witness to the weakness of such a dogmatic approach to teaching as expressed by the OP.
Interesting point! I would simply contribute that before you qualified to teach, you had to learn the facts and function of biomedical science. One sized education and studying from the same books and materials as other fellow students did is what got you to acquire your basic skills in the subject. True?
 
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...I would appreciate it if you and other would stop making up silly conclusions and acting as if they are true.

If you use weights, you are using them for only one reason, to build up your muscles. When you use a metronome, you are using it for only one reason, to develop your sense of time. No one uses a metronome for any other reason unless there's no drummer around.

Maybe practice what you preach. Just a thought.
 
Oh my gosh Joe, we all like you. No one is trying to be hostile, I don't think.
I think maybe my posts are not having the intended effect. That was just my way of pointing out yet another “wrong” assertion. I’m using my experience as proof though, and since it’s not scientific I’m anticipating the possible rebuttals... I thought I was being light hearted about it.

Yeah. I’m way too invested in this.

Thanks for the kind words and reassurance :).
 
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