Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[DeltaTango]

Music is strange, in that it's not enough to understand theory intellectually, as in being to pass an exam in a classroom, or explain it to someone. The theory has to become ingrained in your mind and body, in an auditory and tactile way, so that you can use it without a great deal of conscious mental processing, just like you use words when you're talking, without thinking about grammar or logic. That way you can play what you hear, see, and imagine, as it is happening. Playing scales causes the theory to be programmed into a different "storage" in your brain, where it's more accessible to your ears and hands. Likewise for arpeggios and other elemental patterns.

What is the best way to go about getting the theory ingrained in the mind and body as you describe. I have studied some theory but I am sure not enough. Other than more classroom study and trying to understand theory while playing a tune or just listening and following the chart, how do I get to the “ingrained “ and ready to use without the great deal of mental processing part. I feel like I understand parts and pieces but the “ingraining” that I so desire is not there yet. Can you point me to a learning path?

 

[JeffBerlin]

What is the best way to go about getting the theory ingrained in the mind and body as you describe. I have studied some theory but I am sure not enough. Other than more classroom study and trying to understand theory while playing a tune or just listening and following the chart, how do I get to the “ingrained “ and ready to use without the great deal of mental processing part. I feel like I understand parts and pieces but the “ingraining” that I so desire is not there yet. Can you point me to a learning path?

There is no reason to ingrain anything. There is a benefit of experiencing steady review. Just remember that while you are involved with your regard of musical content, you can still do everything that gives you pleasure on your bass. Learning isn't a replacement. It is an addition!!!

 

[somebrains]

Music is strange, in that it's not enough to understand theory intellectually, as in being to pass an exam in a classroom, or explain it to someone. The theory has to become ingrained in your mind and body, in an auditory and tactile way, so that you can use it without a great deal of conscious mental processing, just like you use words when you're talking, without thinking about grammar or logic. That way you can play what you hear, see, and imagine, as it is happening. Playing scales causes the theory to be programmed into a different "storage" in your brain, where it's more accessible to your ears and hands. Likewise for arpeggios and other elemental patterns.

I was addressing that concept stack, as well as the title "What is Taught Without only Teaching the Facts".
Most people know a collection of memorized actions, but if you want to access thinking in the moment of creation then you'd want to use as many deep learning techniques as possible.

I've worked on a lot of technology.
I've taught many people to do things.
The most pervasive learning will be in video gaming.
Are we teaching the player to enjoy the game, or does the player just magically enjoy the game?

 

[JLW]

I understand the point you’re trying to make, but you are presenting it in a logical fallacy. You say that nearly 100% of players learned certain aspects of playing and performing without the aid of a teacher, so why should they players in 2018 not learn these things on their own without having to pay a teacher to show them, correct? The problem with that is that literally everything that any teacher can teach you was learned at some point without a teacher. Following that line of logic no lessons should be taken by anyone because tons of people before them learned all of those things without lessons; it dilutes the thrust of your ideas by representing it that way.

The fact that they can learn it without a teacher does not mean they are better off learning it without a teacher. Maybe it would be better to focus on saying why certain things are better learned without a teacher; for example, learning to lock in with a drummer is better taught when playing with an actual drummer than a bass instructor as a metronome can’t mimic the percussive hit you feel in the chest when you’re near a kick drum. Or that learning slap without a teacher will likely only take slightly longer than with as it’s an easy technique to pick up and therefore not likely worth the cost to time ratio (this one isn’t really true nowadays considering how complex a technique slap has become, but it’s just an example).


FWIW I think there’s validity in lessons for every single possible thing for certain people as some people simply don’t learn what you would expect them to over time. There’s guys I’ve played with who’ve played for 40+ years who still have terrible time or are completely awkward not only in front of people but with bandmates as well. I’m not saying all of these things should be added to an academic curriculum because of this, but the help should still be there for those who need it.

Funny how this perfect rebuttal is conveniently ignored.

 

[zontar]

The more I read about things like this--with differing views as well, the more I am glad I did have piano & guitar lessons before starting bass & that it did help in learning bass & in figuring things out myself in addition to lessons.
So some food for thought in this thread--I will need more time to go through some of it though.

 

[Andy Daventry]

In other areas of learning, even if the manner of teaching might vary, everything that is taught is based in fact of those subjects. They aren't taught an in-time performance when learning those things.

Everything has its own time flow when performing those tasks. Top people don't stop to think too much if they have already learned their subjects. Here are a few examples.

1. Driving
2. Swimming
3. Dancing
4. Sports
5. Learning a New Language
6. Cooking
7. Instruments other than the bass
8. Law
9. Medicine
10. Math

I feel that since practically everything is taught and learned out of time, bass would best be learned this way as well if one decided to seek out a teacher or a school (this explains why I dislike metronomes; they don't give you a chance to think about what you are learning.

I feel that being taught the bass is best done as a narrow and specific academic experience.

I have been teaching languages professionally for 35 years, and I don't agree with you. A large part of language teaching is precisely the monitored and supported development of performance skills in real time. Courses which only focus on the grammar and vocabulary of it all result in learners who don't learn how to do it. Language is something you do, and bass playing is also something you do. Now, I am not a great bass player - I have hacked it in cover bands in bars and that's the level I play at. Now I am approaching retirement, I find I want to take the instrument more seriously, and yes, I am now much more interested in learning the grammar of the instrument and the music.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I had a head start with lessons on piano, violin, trombone and trumpet. I learned to play bass by ear. Also having perfect relative pitch helped a lot. Later I bought a learning book. I learned all the scales but honestly only practiced major and minor scales. My main motivation was to learn songs for whatever band I was in. I wish I did take lessons on proper fingering. I used to lay my fingers flat on the fretboard. Folks would ask me all the time how did I play like that. While in my 30's I forced myself to bend my fingers properly and to use my pinky. I feel like I'm pretty prominent on my instrument but admittedly fast arpeggios elude me. Being Caribbean afforded me excellent meter and rhythms.

No questions for you. Just relaying my learning experiences.

I wish I could have the time and the support for taking formal lessons and getting explanations on how the music I feel inside me frames into the vast sea of harmony ...

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I feel that bass players teach things that weren't taught before as these subjects didn't require instruction or lecturing about. For me, the assumption that bass players can't eventually figure out how to (say) relate to an audience seems patronizing to me. Bass players can figure this out on their own. Do subjects as these even require mentioning?

If you know about me, I have a problem with today's bass educational system practically in its entirety because I believe that it is teaching things that don't require teaching. If nearly 100% of all top players learned on their own how to groove or play with drummers and relate in some manner with an audience and accomplished theses skills without being taught or lectured about them (and they all did) then what has changed where bass players in 2018 can't learn these things in the same ways. Even the people that are teaching you these principles didn't acquire their knowledge by being taught these things. If these lessons were learned by just about everyone who teaches them, then shouldn't this manner of learning them be good enough for you?

Hi... I tend to agree as I believe (personal situation) I was gifted with a drum machine planted in my mind since I start to remember things, therefore, it wasn’t difficult to intuitively understand the mutual dynamics and interactions which have to establish between a bass player and a drummer (I actually found only a few drummers who could appreciate how silence in music has the same importance as a played note) ... however I guess that for many bass players this step may not be so straightforward so ... maybe the truth is in an in-between approach, although, and this is my opinion, an aspiring bass player who may not feel a small metronome in his head after some time, in order to expand his horizons looking at music under a broader perspective, may have to reconsider his/her situation/status ...

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I have been teaching languages professionally for 35 years, and I don't agree with you. A large part of language teaching is precisely the monitored and supported development of performance skills in real time. Courses which only focus on the grammar and vocabulary of it all result in learners who don't learn how to do it. Language is something you do, and bass playing is also something you do. Now, I am not a great bass player - I have hacked it in cover bands in bars and that's the level I play at. Now I am approaching retirement, I find I want to take the instrument more seriously, and yes, I am now much more interested in learning the grammar of the instrument and the music.

Hi ... don’t want to contradict you, however, because of my job, I had to learn three foreign languages, that is: English, French and Chinese (of course spoken with different degrees of proficiency - I’m Italian)...
Last year I moved to Poland with another company ... bad situation there as only a few people is able to understand English ... long story short I had to start learning another language (Polish) ... the teacher adopted a “speak immediately with what you know” approach, which is basically ok, but without any formal explanations of the rules and exceptions ... being Italian I know how grammar is important in well structured languages and the Polish one seems to be quite complex as well ... I believe that in my case a mixed approach (informal/formal) would help as I frequently find myself asking the teacher about the reasons why a given sentence has to stated in a certain way rather than in another way ...

 

[Andy Daventry]

Hi ... don’t want to contradict you, however, because of my job, I had to learn three foreign languages, that is: English, French and Chinese (of course spoken with different degrees of proficiency - I’m Italian)...
Last year I moved to Poland with another company ... bad situation there as only a few people is able to understand English ... long story short I had to start learning another language (Polish) ... the teacher adopted a “speak immediately with what you know” approach, which is basically ok, but without any formal explanations of the rules and exceptions ... being Italian I know how grammar is important in well structured languages and the Polish one seems to be quite complex as well ... I believe that in my case a mixed approach (informal/formal) would help as I frequently find myself asking the teacher about the reasons why a given sentence has to stated in a certain way rather than in another way ...

You’re not contradicting me! I totally agree.

 

[SteveCS]

After a very long time here I can tell you that Bass Player and a lot of rock player in general want to be entertainer. They want to put a show the music is very secondary.
They’ll know just enough for it to work.

Then the type of learning they (don't) seek will mean that is where they will stay. They have no use for the approach to learning being championed by @JeffBerlin. And if they are happy with that then all is well and good.
From time to time I sit with the family and watch 'talent' shows on TV. The innate talent for whom the music comes first always stands above the 'stage school' bunnies serving up the same highly polished 'going through the moves/faking it' turds that clearly put the music second. IMHO 'playing from the heart' advice (groove, feel, pulling faces etc) that people so desperately seek cannot be taught in its own right - it flows from an intimate understanding of (the) music (that can be taught) and an equally intimate connection with the instrument that only comes through playing the music. YMMV.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

I do think it’s a bit odd that you’re using the term ‘self-taught’ in a way that most people would not - ie that it’s encompassing all methods other than the one that you espouse, including those that involve a teacher other than oneself; whereas most people use this term to describe learning on one’s own without any teacher. As someone who works in communications for a living, I find that if you try to reappropriate a term like this, it usually only serves to confuse or annoy your audience. Just my 2c.

 

[Wasnex]

1. I will only add that my intention is to try to inspire bass players to aim higher than some seem interested in doing.

2. Next, your view that one's individual goals are an issue with learning isn't true. No matter one's goals, there is a common language in use, that being notes, harmony, rhythm and melody. No matter what your goals are or what music you are interested in, every style of bass playing requires practically the exact same harmonic elements as every other style. This means that no matter what your individual goals are, bass players all have a common need to learn the exact same musical content before they can arrive at their goals as players.

3. Everyone that writes their posts had a common background in learning (in this case) the rules required to both read and write English. No one's goals had any impact on learning these skills. Everyone is different and have different thoughts, ideas and emotions, and yet everyone started out by learning the same academic rules and academic principles to learn how to read and write. How would you explain how we all learned from common sources and yet ended up as individuals in our writing abilities?

I redacted your quote above; then numbered the content that I have responded to.

1. I do accept you are trying to inspire people. But you can only inspire people to a level of knowledge that is limited by their intellect, the quality of their memory, and their motivation. As one approaches this intellectual plateau, it becomes difficult to comprehend increasingly difficult concepts. Many people are not capable of approaching your level of knowledge mastery. You need to accept that you have exceptional talent in some areas of intellect that are beyond what most people are capable of, and factor that into the way you try to motivate others. It's not one size fits all. Everyone has different abilities and experiences, and you have to remain humble and tie into individual needs if you want to inspire.

Have you studied any of the motivation theories? If you truly want to inspire people that might be a good subject to delve into.

2. Basically I agree that goals do not change the nature of what can be learned. But goals do matter because people can't learn and retain music theory in its entirety in an instant. You can't look at theory from a macro level because we can only learn a bit at a time, and memory is finite and ephemeral. As result, we have to prioritize which new material to learn and continually review concepts we have previously mastered. We use goals to determine what to study and when. Additionally theory is often foundational, meaning we build more complex ideas off of basic ideas. Therefore goals are used to determine an appropriate order of study and review.

3. I learned to read using phonics and many people today use a system called whole language. Over my lifetime many words have come and gone from common usage, and punctuation rules, which vary by style guide, have changed significantly.

I do see some parallels here to learning music theory. Like the written and spoken language, theory is infinitely complex, changing, and taught with a variety of methods. The minimum one should hope for is to develop a solid foundation that allows one to cover a wide range of popular styles. Luckily many styles share common rules, but when we are presented with an unfamiliar style, we may need to learn new rules or exceptions to rules. People with a love of theory may continually rebuild and expand their knowledge of theory for the duration of their life, but how is theory applied to performance?

Much of what we do while performing is intuitive and instinctual rather than academic. Much like we don't think about grammar or spelling rules when speaking or writing, we don't play music based upon our direct intellectual knowledge of theory. Rather, we simply play what sounds right based upon our role in the context of what we hear, where we are in the musical form, and where the form is heading. So, in essence the role of technique is to translate the symbols we use to visualize and communicate theory into the notes we form with our instruments.

For a thought experiment, think about how difficult it is to apply theory to an instrument you have not learned. How do you approach this situation differently from performing on an instrument you have mastered.

 

[Al Dente]

Great post! I will only add that my intention is to try to inspire bass players to aim higher than some seem interested in doing. Of course this is their personal choice. But, I prefer not to address people in a manner that is adjusted to fit their comfort zone when I feel that I am addressing adult men and women that deserve to be addressed as such.

Next, your view that one's individual goals are an issue with learning isn't true. No matter one's goals, there is a common language in use, that being notes, harmony, rhythm and melody. This is a great error of thinking that goes on in bass education that one's goals have an affect on how the learn because it doesn't matter at all what one's goals are at all. Here is why.

But first, realize there are only two ways to learn:

1. Being self taught which puts you entirely in charge of any decision that affects your musical life.

2. Learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm which comes with specific rules to learn it.

No matter what your goals are or what music you are interested in, every style of bass playing requires practically the exact same harmonic elements as every other style. This means that no matter what your individual goals are, bass players all have a common need to learn the exact same musical content before they can arrive at their goals as players.

Here's another way to look at it:

Everyone that writes their posts had a common background in learning (in this case) the rules required to both read and write English. No one's goals had any impact on learning these skills. Everyone is different and have different thoughts, ideas and emotions, and yet everyone started out by learning the same academic rules and academic principles to learn how to read and write. How would you explain how we all learned from common sources and yet ended up as individuals in our writing abilities?

Think about this and associate your conclusion with learning or playing bass!

Within my limited knowledge of the subject, this is brilliant, and I can't find a way to disagree with this.

 

[Wasnex]

Music is strange, in that it's not enough to understand theory intellectually, as in being to pass an exam in a classroom, or explain it to someone. The theory has to become ingrained in your mind and body, in an auditory and tactile way, so that you can use it without a great deal of conscious mental processing, just like you use words when you're talking, without thinking about grammar or logic. That way you can play what you hear, see, and imagine, as it is happening. Playing scales causes the theory to be programmed into a different "storage" in your brain, where it's more accessible to your ears and hands. Likewise for arpeggios and other elemental patterns.

And if your like me, the muscle memory and ear remain long after the academic understanding has subsided.

 

[matthewbrown]

Hi to All. Happy New Year! It is great to be back on Talkbass. I've already engaged in chatting with many members about learning how to play and it has been a pleasure.

Some people believe that there are many ways to learn how to play. I agree, and for me, this is the problem! There are a multitude of learning approaches when only a couple will do for everyone no matter what style of bass they play.

In other areas of learning, even if the manner of teaching might vary, everything that is taught is based in fact of those subjects. They aren't taught an in-time performance when learning those things.

Everything has its own time flow when performing those tasks. Top people don't stop to think too much if they have already learned their subjects. Here are a few examples.

1. Driving
2. Swimming
3. Dancing
4. Sports
5. Learning a New Language
6. Cooking
7. Instruments other than the bass
8. Law
9. Medicine
10. Math

I feel that since practically everything is taught and learned out of time, bass would best be learned this way as well if one decided to seek out a teacher or a school (this explains why I dislike metronomes; they don't give you a chance to think about what you are learning.

I feel that being taught the bass is best done as a narrow and specific academic experience. I feel that nearly all other learning suggestions, while sounding nice, haven't produced positive results for most bass players. I feel that any lesson or lecture that mentions Groove, Feel, Communication, Spirit, Heart, Locking with drummers, Playing to the Audience, "Whatever you play is OK," or "You can learn from everything" are examples where you are being taught things that don't require paying a teacher to learn. These are not the most important aspects in how you should be taught.

Here are two thoughts of mine that will fuel this discussion:

1. Learning is different than Playing!

2. There are only two ways to learn; a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

Your comments are welcome.

This post includes what is known as reductionism. This approach ignores the fact that the experience of music is subjective, and depends on what each listener brings in the way of inherited ability and accumulated experience. I recommend that Mr. Berlin take a few more courses in psychology before he continues spouting his views on learning.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. I still don't understand what my dear TB colleagues are emotionally-discussing about.

I still don't understand why many TB members are so adamant to argue with one of the greatest Bass players in the world.
(Is it some kind of form of ...?).

I don't like Death Metal music but I would not go to the Musical Metallurgy forum and start arguing with its members.
But so many TB members are doing the same while engaging in "heated" quarrels with one of the Great Bass Guitar player in the world.


Instead of getting so much knowledge from Jeff Berlin about SOOOOO many things, we are just engaging in some "strange" debates that teaches us NOTHING.
What is this argument about?

You want to learn on your own - LEARN OWN YOUR OWN!
You don't want to to hire a teacher - DON'T HIRE A TEACHER!
You want to subscribe to Scott's youtube channel - Pay the money and subscribe!
And so on...

I am a big supporter of learning Music - Music Theory, Solfeggio, Harmony, Composition, Arrangement, Musical Analysis, etc...
I would highly recommend for any bass player to learn the piano.
I'm a big supporter of learning from Classical Music compositions/pieces.

 

[SteveCS]

...
Additionally theory is often foundational, meaning we build more complex ideas off of basic ideas.
...

Totally, and I think this is part of the problem with a lot of teaching methods and materials - they tend to go off at the deep end outwith the context of any solid foundation. Walking on quicksand, if you will.

I recall some books in a series I looked at in the 80s. The first one covered how to hold the bass, the notes of the open strings and how to play a major scale in a box pattern. The next book was straight in with modes and improvisation! Nothing in between about how diatonic chords were built, their relationship with scales/key, their function in a given key, cadence or modulation, the differences and relationships between major and minor tonality, keys or the names/function of notes in the key. There were generic lead sheets with chord symbols and outline bass parts in a few simple genre, but nothing explaining what the chord symbols actually meant and therefore no clue to why the given bass part was as it was or how it related to the harmony or how it might be modified in the context of a melody - perhaps a tall order as none was given!

 

[bench]

P.S. I still don't understand what my dear TB colleagues are emotionally-discussing about.

I still don't understand why many TB members are so adamant to argue with one of the greatest Bass players in the world.
(Is it some kind of form of ...?).

I don't like Death Metal music but I would not go to the Musical Metallurgy forum and start arguing with its members.
But so many TB members are doing the same while engaging in "heated" quarrels with one of the Great Bass Guitar player in the world.


Instead of getting so much knowledge from Jeff Berlin about SOOOOO many things, we are just engaging in some "strange" debates that teaches us NOTHING.
What is this argument about?

You want to learn on your own - LEARN OWN YOUR OWN!
You don't want to to hire a teacher - DON'T HIRE A TEACHER!
You want to subscribe to Scott's youtube channel - Pay the money and subscribe!
And so on...

I am a big supporter of learning Music - Music Theory, Solfeggio, Harmony, Composition, Arrangement, Musical Analysis, etc...
I would highly recommend for any bass player to learn the piano.
I'm a big supporter of learning from Classical Music compositions/pieces.

EXACTLY THIS! thank you...

 

[Wasnex]

What is the best way to go about getting the theory ingrained in the mind and body as you describe. I have studied some theory but I am sure not enough. Other than more classroom study and trying to understand theory while playing a tune or just listening and following the chart, how do I get to the “ingrained “ and ready to use without the great deal of mental processing part. I feel like I understand parts and pieces but the “ingraining” that I so desire is not there yet. Can you point me to a learning path?

It helps to slow things down when you are trying to translate the theory to the instrument. Basically, stop and think what you want to do, place one note at a time, repeat until you can do it smoothly, and then start bumping the tempo.

Practicing arpeggiated chords in all inversions and playing diatonic and altered modes is also a good way to build a foundation. Or practice modes and scales in intervals such as thirds, fourth, fifths, etc, or play. The pattern for thirds for example: 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6,5,7,6,8,7,2,8,8,6,7,5,6,4,5,3,4,2,3,1,2,7,1. You could also pick a key or mode and play the diatonic triads or 7 chords in a similar fashion. The best way to learn is to try and make up your own way and have fun with it.

I have lost most of the academic knowledge I had, but I remember things starting to click and beginning to perceive the relationships between notes as mathematical or spatial. It felt kind of like a spiritual experience and I think it's a bit different for everyone. Unfortunately I left school shortly after that so I never got totally to relative pitch and a clearly hearing intervals and chords in my mind, but I was very close. The key to getting as far as I did was a daily focus on theory and lots of time banging on a grand piano.