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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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Because you are open to it! How great!

How could anyone NOT be open to anything you say? If you desire to be a great bassist, then you listen to what great bassists say.

I am currently seeking a new instructor. Living where I do, there are lots, and LOTS of teachers around. Just down the road where I grew up, Adam Nitti gives lessons. I fired off an email to him to get some info and see if he's taking on new students. He seems to meet the "jazz" requirement you recommended as well as being a "theory guy". I'm just hoping I can afford him. Even if I can only go once a month, to study with him would be a great experience.

Wonder if Victor Wooten gives lessons? I think he lives close by as well. :D
 
Well, notice the smiley face. I'm sure Vic (and probably Adam too) are far too busy with touring and such to take on regular students. But hey, a man can dream can't he?

Dammit, I need the Mr. Miyagi of bass instructors. Someone to take me under their wing as a project.

mr-miyagi.jpg


"Focus Chad san! Focus! Close eye. Play! Breathe in, breathe out....in...out..."

LOL! :D
 
Tenor clef is occasionally used in cello music, but it's mostly bass clef. I've been working through the Dotzauer etudes for some time, I'm currently halfway through book II. They are very musical and VERY challenging. The material is overwhelmingly bass clef, with just a few short passages in tenor clef, so I think it makes excellent sightreading material for bass, especially for 5 string players, since cello music goes down to low C.

Although it's challenging, almost everything is quite playable on electric bass, until you get into some of the etudes with double stops in the second book. Of course, as with trombone music, cello parts are intended to be played an octave higher than they will sound on bass guitar, but that's not generally a problem. The style is classical, of course. With trombone music you could find more jazz style material. But I highly recommend Dotzauer for more advanced reading practice.

Thanks! A very helpful review. I have been thinking of ordering the first book for some time, but wasn't sure of it's application to bass guitar, despite the fact that Jaco apparently made use of it.
 
Well, notice the smiley face. I'm sure Vic (and probably Adam too) are far too busy with touring and such to take on regular students. But hey, a man can dream can't he?
not necessarily true. there's a fair amount of down time when they're not touring and i don't think either of them are too rich where they wouldn't mind an extra $100 an hour for teaching bass. i used to take lessons off dave larue. you never know until you try. and there's also roy vogt, who definitely still teaches.
 
To Fergie, I agree with what you say for the most part, but if my daughter's elementary school did not offer music,art and PE as well as the three R's (something that is neccessary to function I agree) she would go nuts in school just hammering out reading, writing and math and she is an A student. I am a public school teacher and professional bass player of 25 years, I have taught all ages (Elem,Middle and HS) and have seen with my own eyes the NEED for the arts at every level. In today's world cuts are a brutal reality we all have lived the past few years in all facets of life not just the arts. But to make the arts go extinct in a public school for ANY reason would be catastrophic in relation to student acheivement in the other academic subjects - the Three R's. I cant speak for other countries because I have not experienced it, but I have in the US in both rural and urban school districts and I say the need for arts and PE are an abosolute need, not a luxury.
 
you never know until you try. and there's also roy vogt, who definitely still teaches.

Chad, if you are in the Nashville Area, you CANNOT do better than Roy. I have taken a few lessons from him, and he is a great teacher who really focuses on teaching music, and not BS. You can PM him here on TB, and he'll get back to you and let you know if he has time. He teaches bass at Belmont U so he is a pretty busy dude!
 
I turned down joining Van Halen because when you join a band, you join its philsophy, its lifestyle and principles. At the time that they asked me, they were into a lifestyle that I wasn't into. So I declined, even though I was flattered and I still consider Edward as great an innovator as John Coltrane, but, of course in a wholy different style of music.

It would have been really cool to hear what might have been, but I respect the decision. Rockers can be a bad influence, you never know what you might find yourself doing ...



:p
 
I'm not in the area...I'm smack dab in the middle of Nashville. I can look out my office window and see Music Row, Vanderbilt, and off in the distance....Belmont.

I can't remember for sure, but I think I contacted Roy last week. I sent emails out to a few people listed as giving lessons in the area in their Talk Bass member profile.

I might hit him up again.

I'm hoping to find someone who is as interested in teaching as I am in learning.
 
How could anyone NOT be open to anything you say? If you desire to be a great bassist, then you listen to what great bassists say.

I am currently seeking a new instructor. Living where I do, there are lots, and LOTS of teachers around. Just down the road where I grew up, Adam Nitti gives lessons. I fired off an email to him to get some info and see if he's taking on new students. He seems to meet the "jazz" requirement you recommended as well as being a "theory guy". I'm just hoping I can afford him. Even if I can only go once a month, to study with him would be a great experience.

Wonder if Victor Wooten gives lessons? I think he lives close by as well. :D

My suggestion is to only study with guys who teaches music, no matter who it is. You should study with someone who teaches music or you will be paying money to hang, not to improve on your bass. If you do not get homework, or do not have musical things to practice, then your lessons will probably not lead you toward playing improvement. Find a bonafide good music teacher and you will see the difference in what you do on the bass in a little while.
 
To Fergie, I agree with what you say for the most part, but if my daughter's elementary school did not offer music,art and PE as well as the three R's (something that is neccessary to function I agree) she would go nuts in school just hammering out reading, writing and math and she is an A student. I am a public school teacher and professional bass player of 25 years, I have taught all ages (Elem,Middle and HS) and have seen with my own eyes the NEED for the arts at every level. In today's world cuts are a brutal reality we all have lived the past few years in all facets of life not just the arts. But to make the arts go extinct in a public school for ANY reason would be catastrophic in relation to student acheivement in the other academic subjects - the Three R's. I cant speak for other countries because I have not experienced it, but I have in the US in both rural and urban school districts and I say the need for arts and PE are an abosolute need, not a luxury.

True, but the need for academic studies may superced the arts because everybody plays artfully, that is, with emotion, how they feel about music. This is my definition of the arts; it is something that one believes in and plays for that belief. But, many times, players who do this don't know what they are playing nore know much about music at all. Therefore, an education, equal to your philosophy as a teacher is necessary. And not the blues or rock because everybody plays these styles and for free. Education requires regarding material that is accurate, correct and true, not just what feels good. I am sure that as a teacher you might agree with this.
 
Jeff, are you saying that I should forego any instrument instruction until I get music instruction?

I've often felt that would make sense, but finding someone to teach you music and ONLY music is not something I've run across short of enrolling in college. Belmont and Vanderbilt both offer excellent music programs, but I'd have to hit the lotto to attend either one, and honestly, I don't want another degree.

Looking at the catalogs for either university yields a litany of various courses that seems to be more complex than quantum physics.

It's like trying to eat the proverbial elephant. We all know to eat it one bite at a time, but do you start at the trunk or the tail?
 
Jeff, are you saying that I should forego any instrument instruction until I get music instruction?

I've often felt that would make sense, but finding someone to teach you music and ONLY music is not something I've run across short of enrolling in college. Belmont and Vanderbilt both offer excellent music programs, but I'd have to hit the lotto to attend either one, and honestly, I don't want another degree.

Looking at the catalogs for either university yields a litany of various courses that seems to be more complex than quantum physics.

It's like trying to eat the proverbial elephant. We all know to eat it one bite at a time, but do you start at the trunk or the tail?

No! I am saying that instruction has to have a meaning. You already know how to play a bass. But, your probably don't know WHAT to play on it. Everybody can play a bass who owns one. The trick is to play things that are not obtainable to you right now. The only way to get this is to learn things of a musical nature because a bass only produces musical notes and nothing else. May as well learn how to get those musical notes out of your instrument in ways that you presently don't already know about.This is why some should really think about who will be teaching them. I'm a fan of a lot of musicians, but this doesn't mean that they would be the best teachers to study with.
 
You're the master player, not me, so I won't argue with you. But I think I could soundly prove that I don't have the first clue as to how to play the bass. LOL! :)

I know what you're saying though. Yes, I know how to hold it and pluck the strings and such. I just don't know how to make my fingers do my minds bidding.
 
You're the master player, not me, so I won't argue with you. But I think I could soundly prove that I don't have the first clue as to how to play the bass. LOL! :)

I know what you're saying though. Yes, I know how to hold it and pluck the strings and such. I just don't know how to make my fingers do my minds bidding.

OK! This means that more than other guys, you need to learn how to make your instrument work. You are perfect candidate for academic lessons, even while you might listen and try to imitate the CD's that you enjoy to listen to. Good luck!
 
Okay, I have been avoiding this thread. Why? because I am a huge fan of Jeff's and I don't feel the need to either argue with him or pat him on the back.
However,I do have a question for you Jeff.

I am primarily a Chapman Stickist now but was once a bass player. I was on Charlie's waiting list but moved before studying with him (a drag). I did however have some great teachers in Boston including Jerry Bergonzi. My question is this.

Why have many of the Banacos exercises not been published either by him or others?

I think the answer lies in personalized instruction and the need for an educated ear to guide a player along. But at times I wish I could just read about some of his concepts.

Thanks for any response Jeff

Brett

Link Removed
 
To Fergie, I agree with what you say for the most part, but if my daughter's elementary school did not offer music,art and PE as well as the three R's (something that is neccessary to function I agree) she would go nuts in school just hammering out reading, writing and math and she is an A student. I am a public school teacher and professional bass player of 25 years, I have taught all ages (Elem,Middle and HS) and have seen with my own eyes the NEED for the arts at every level. In today's world cuts are a brutal reality we all have lived the past few years in all facets of life not just the arts. But to make the arts go extinct in a public school for ANY reason would be catastrophic in relation to student acheivement in the other academic subjects - the Three R's. I cant speak for other countries because I have not experienced it, but I have in the US in both rural and urban school districts and I say the need for arts and PE are an abosolute need, not a luxury.

Totally agree 100% but these decisions are not mine, or for that fact anybody who understands the arts. All the decisions do is take away the responsibility for it, rather than fund it regardless. Because of its very nature arts funding is not quantifyable thing in the short term it is a long term. Its a life long thing that stays with those who have access to it that they vist and re-visit in there lifes. Any point i make is not nessesary my view of belief in a subject, but a conclussion based on what is presented. I see things from many angles but like i said i may not agree with what i see, but i have to address it.:)

It is never extinct, only not funded, if you have the money to pay for it then it is there. The points made i take and agree, but the point is funding....who pays for this and to what degree do other funded activities compare.

PE or sport is there for free for anyone that wants to. go to a park kick a ball, bat a ball, run jump, swim etc all there no funding needed. Music can be seen in the same way, you can do it out of school hours so no funding needed.

So what happend in my case?
Why did only four of us decide on music?
How can my music teachers ask for funding and resources for 4 students in the whole school?
In the end i was the only one to get scholarship (three offers) and the only one who took music for a career choice. I turned the scholarships down.
In my school my music class had 4 pupils studing for higher music qualifactions. To that end i narrowed subjects to music, as i studied and played Tenor horn, math and English were mandatory and a mandatory science subject that was biology. To that end i had 4 periods of music a day(from an eight period day) i spent breaks and lunch hours in the music room. I played for three Silver bands through out the week and studies with the Scottish Youth Symphony Orchestra on Saturday mornings saw me seek out my music education, it was never given to me. All this till the age of 16 when i stopped and turned to bass, that was easy because i understood music and music principals.:bassist:

So for me music is a definate in schools, but the question is one of who ultimately pays for it?..... in the financal sense or the spiritual one?
No money to spare.........but in the UK we can find the billions for a war in Iraq and Afganistan because politicians made decision that we should....... we pay for that.:)
 
Okay, I have been avoiding this thread. Why? because I am a huge fan of Jeff's and I don't feel the need to either argue with him or pat him on the back.
However,I do have a question for you Jeff.

I am primarily a Chapman Stickist now but was once a bass player. I was on Charlie's waiting list but moved before studying with him (a drag). I did however have some great teachers in Boston including Jerry Bergonzi. My question is this.

Why have many of the Banacos exercises not been published either by him or others?

I think the answer lies in personalized instruction and the need for an educated ear to guide a player along. But at times I wish I could just read about some of his concepts.

Thanks for any response Jeff

Brett

Link Removed

Charlie was an old time guy in how he taught. He didn't believe in teaching nor learning via the internet. So, he simply invented music to teach one on one, with that genius mind toward music education. Until the day he passed away, he used a cassette machine to pass along his lessons and messages. That was just how he was wired.

For his old time thinking, he never thought to publish his music, preferring to just keep it private and only offer it to the students who paid him to learn from him. Still, to this moment, I consider him the greatest music teacher of all time, never deviating from his specific approaches nor allowing for less-than excellent teaching methods to enter into his world. Neither do I, which is why I dismiss complaints here as nothing short of internet tantrums. Charlie taught me, in fact, he taught everybody who studied with him, that excellence had to be strived for, and that if one were to work on excellent material, then the accomplishment of skilled musicality would be all the sweeter.
 
These guys you talk of do not play blues well because they do not understand music, it has nothing to do with blues. They will be bad players in any genre they go to.:)



This is now the truth of the whole statement, YOU want player to move past the blues. Its nothing to do with individual choice or what a player wants, it is what YOU want. The conceit is in the statement, who are you, or anyone for that matter to question or pre-suppose the reasons why player make choices in music?:bassist:

So get past the blues to what...let me guess Jazz.:)
Is this much in the same way we should all get past the music schools and colleges that are available to get to....let me guess...The Players School in Florida?;)


I think you are missing Jeff's point. Jeff is saying clearly there is a difference bewteen art and education. Jeff is no one to say WHY someone chooses to play what they play. Nor is he trying to. He is just saying you need to have all the education possible so you CAN make an educated choice about what it is YOU want to play. If you don't have the education, your choices are limited. That is how I'm understanding this conversation.

Here is an anology. Music to Math. Blues is a simple form of music (I IV V). Basic addition (1+1=2) is a simple form of math. Calculas is a more difficult form of math, in the same way, Jazz is a more difficult form of music. You can't do calculus if you don't know basic addition. But if you learn calculus you can certainly do basic addition. Once you have the complete education, then you can CHOOSE to either keep doing calculus or, maybe you're happy doing just addition. Or maybe something in between. When you eventually choose, that is when the ART comes into play. You need the full education so you can then make an educated choice of what you want to play, then make your ART out of that. It's not a knock on blues players. It;s just that SOME blues players are playing it because the don't have the education or tools to play other styles or more "factually" (not artfully!) challenging music. The same way a 1st grader is not going to be able to do calculus. The 1st grader does not have the education...yet. So his choices are limited.

That is the way I'm understanding it. Forgive me Jeff if I'm coveying your message incorrectly.:smug:
 
I think you are missing Jeff's point.

That is the way I'm understanding it. Forgive me Jeff if I'm coveying your message incorrectly.:smug:

Tim, you have gotten sucked into the Fergie trap! I have made this mistake in the past, and have found myself beating the forehead of common sense against the wall of frustration. You just need to ignore, ignore, ignore...Otherwise this thread will totally devolve into politics, fluff, and nincompoopery.
 
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