Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

[chadhargis]

That makes sense to me. After all, isn't the amps job to amplify the sound coming out of the bass? No need to play hard when you can just turn up the amp, right?

One of the things I did a couple of weeks back is to turn my amp up to the point that it would be absurdly loud if I played hard. Then I tried to play very quietly using a soft touch. That helped me develop a light touch on the strings. I also turn the stereo down to about a talking volume when I am playing along with music. That keeps me from having to play really loud to "keep up".

I also made a bit of a discovery last night. I don't have the ability (yet) to hear a song and know what key it's in. So I rely on the "hunt and peck" method to find the key. It used to take me quite some time to find the key, but last night I was finding one note, then listening to the song and I discovered that I could HEAR the intervals. It was a big "YEAH" moment for me. I even hit a few "on the fly" when the song had a bridge in it that didn't follow the same pattern as the rest of the song.

 

[Freddels]

Why have many of the Banacos exercises not been published either by him or others?

I think the answer lies in personalized instruction and the need for an educated ear to guide a player along. But at times I wish I could just read about some of his concepts.

Thanks for any response Jeff

Brett

Link Removed

You're right about the lessons being personalized. I can tell you that Charlie could pack a lot into a 1/2 hr lesson. You'd go into his tiny room with his piano, and play what you learned from the prior week's lesson (or try to), he would see how many keys you were able to do it in, then he'd work on some ear training with you. Then in the last few minutes of the lesson he would scribble furiously on your manuscript paper and that would be your lesson for the coming week. If you look at the Chord Studies for Trombone book, some of what Charlie would write out would look like it came directly from there (but it didn't) and he would usually write out a bunch of chords next to the line and tell you that this line could be used on all these chords. Then he might write out some other short line (maybe 5 note sequence) and if you look at it now, you have no idea what he was trying to teach you but at the time, there was something in your playing that day or month that he heard and want to change, correct, modify, teach, whatever. It was all very custom. My guitarist friends would also get different chord voicings to work on. It really depended on what YOU needed to work on.

It didn't take long to get completely overwhelmed with the work. At least for me, I could never get it all done in all keys in one week. But he didn't stop and wait for you, he just piled on more work. The more you did, the more he piled on. He didn't want you to run out of stuff to practice.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I also made a bit of a discovery last night. I don't have the ability (yet) to hear a song and know what key it's in. So I rely on the "hunt and peck" method to find the key. It used to take me quite some time to find the key, but last night I was finding one note, then listening to the song and I discovered that I could HEAR the intervals. It was a big "YEAH" moment for me. I even hit a few "on the fly" when the song had a bridge in it that didn't follow the same pattern as the rest of the song.

Hunting and pecking is, well, hunting and pecking! Can you find a teacher in your area to teach you musical content? This would be the very best thing for you to do because a hunter/pecker ( sounds worse than it is) doesn't know the notes nor where to find them. A great teacher will help you with this.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You're right about the lessons being personalized. I can tell you that Charlie could pack a lot into a 1/2 hr lesson. You'd go into his tiny room with his piano, and play what you learned from the prior week's lesson (or try to), he would see how many keys you were able to do it in, then he'd work on some ear training with you. Then in the last few minutes of the lesson he would scribble furiously on your manuscript paper and that would be your lesson for the coming week. If you look at the Chord Studies for Trombone book, some of what Charlie would write out would look like it came directly from there (but it didn't) and he would usually write out a bunch of chords next to the line and tell you that this line could be used on all these chords. Then he might write out some other short line (maybe 5 note sequence) and if you look at it now, you have no idea what he was trying to teach you but at the time, there was something in your playing that day or month that he heard and want to change, correct, modify, teach, whatever. It was all very custom. My guitarist friends would also get different chord voicings to work on. It really depended on what YOU needed to work on.

It didn't take long to get completely overwhelmed with the work. At least for me, I could never get it all done in all keys in one week. But he didn't stop and wait for you, he just piled on more work. The more you did, the more he piled on. He didn't want you to run out of stuff to practice.

Exactly! He was only interested in making sure that students improved. And this meant that you had to work your butt off. He was a no-nonsense teacher. Nobody was like him and nobody offered what he offered. Incidentally, if some of the exercises in Chord Studies for Trombone resembled some of his exercises, it is only because jazz studies are based on similar principles. An approach note is an approach note, and Charlie found a million ways to teach it. The trombone book is only one of those ways, but they are both coming from similar sources.

 

[Jim Campbell]

hey jeff, roy vogt,spoke of "reharmonized pentatonics" in another thread.....perhaps you or he could elaborate

 

[JeffBerlin]

It seems one of my comments caused offence, i apologise for this and will try and be more carefull with what it write and take nto consideration the broad spectrum of views. Please accept my apology if you felt it included you, sorry again.

ONE of your comments? What people are you addressing when you apologize? Apologize? For the names that you called me? For your on-going rude comments? For the way you argued with some of the guys over here on this thread?

Apology NOT ACCEPTED! Take a hike and go somewhere else!

Do you believe this kid? One apology for the muck-ups and twisted logic that he polluted this thread with? Take a walk kid and go somewhere else and preach your heart out. You know it all and have done it all anyway according to your comments.

 

[chadhargis]

doesn't know the notes nor where to find them

Bingo! There in lies my problem. I'm currently working to find a teacher who can help me with this. I've spoken with three others, and I'm trying to set up a date with one. There seems to be no shortage of people in my area who want to teach, I simply need to find one like this:

He was only interested in making sure that students improved. And this meant that you had to work your butt off. He was a no-nonsense teacher.

I want someone to push me. Challenge me. Let me use my bulldog tenacity to improve. Just point me in the right direction and say, "Sic 'em!".

I have no shortage of desire....what I'm missing is direction.

 

[Freddels]

Exactly! He was only interested in making sure that students improved. And this meant that you had to work your butt off. He was a no-nonsense teacher. Nobody was like him and nobody offered what he offered. Incidentally, if some of the exercises in Chord Studies for Trombone resembled some of his exercises, it is only because jazz studies are based on similar principles. An approach note is an approach note, and Charlie found a million ways to teach it. The trombone book is only one of those ways, but they are both coming from similar sources.

Exactly, some of the exercises resembled the chord studies which would be this long line of notes which were made up chord tones, tensions, and approach notes.

 

[TimK]

Live and learn. Good luck! Chin up! Back turned! Ignoring those who should be ignored! There are a lot of threads for these people to go to. Let us get to the music!

with getting back to music in mind... here is a question for you Jeff:

As we practice, learn and develop our musical abilities over time, how do you find it is best to take our newly developed and/or improved musical abilities and apply them to creating music outside of an educational format? Does this just "happen naturally" as we progress as musicians or do you have ways or suggestions as to how to begin to incorporate what we have learned into musically creative situations?

A little background on why I'm asking this question. I do have a major University Jazz studies degree and feel that I'm am fairly advanced in terms of my musical and theoretical knowledge. However, since college I have been mainly playing in cover band or similar situations where learning the parts was most important. Theory and creativity are less important in these senarios. There is not very much creativity involved in learning pop and rock cover tunes. You either play the part right or you don't. But now, for the 1st time I am playing in a group that does primarly original music. I want to leverage my musical knowledge to make the best music I can and contribute to the project by utilizing what I have learned. I hope this makes sense.

BTW- how cool is it to be abel to "talk" with Jeff about stuff like this?!?! Thanks for being so accessable to us all!! What a blessing!

 

[JeffBerlin]

hey jeff, roy vogt,spoke of "reharmonized pentatonics" in another thread.....perhaps you or he could elaborate

I have no idea what reharmed pentatonics are. Sorry!

 

[John Wentzien]

I have no idea what reharmed pentatonics are. Sorry!

Hey Roy! I'm curious now.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Bingo! There in lies my problem. I'm currently working to find a teacher who can help me with this. I've spoken with three others, and I'm trying to set up a date with one. There seems to be no shortage of people in my area who want to teach, I simply need to find one like this:



I want someone to push me. Challenge me. Let me use my bulldog tenacity to improve. Just point me in the right direction and say, "Sic 'em!".

I have no shortage of desire....what I'm missing is direction.

Music! Music! It's good for your heart! The more you practice.......well! You get the idea!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Exactly, some of the exercises resembled the chord studies which would be this long line of notes which were made up chord tones, tensions, and approach notes.

If bass players only knew that great musical cognition is only 6months away if they practice "The Good Stuff" with "The Right Guys" they would be amazed. The truth is, many musicians play the same, continue with the same line of thinking for years. It is like continuing believing in a belief that really hasn't shown any benefits, and yet some still stick with them (metronomes, for example!)

Six months, and one would be shocked at the musical difference that they would exhibit if they would just find a teacher who could teach them The Good Stuff!"

 

[chadhargis]

The more you practice.......well! You get the idea!

Yeah...how do ya get to Carnegie Hall? Right?

Six months, and one would be shocked at the musical difference that they would exhibit if they would just find a teacher who could teach them The Good Stuff!"
Reply With Quote

I'm looking for the person who can teach me "the good stuff". Feverishly searching.

 

[JeffBerlin]

with getting back to music in mind... here is a question for you Jeff:

As we practice, learn and develop our musical abilities over time, how do you find it is best to take our newly developed and/or improved musical abilities and apply them to creating music outside of an educational format? Does this just "happen naturally" as we progress as musicians or do you have ways or suggestions as to how to begin to incorporate what we have learned into musically creative situations?

A little background on why I'm asking this question. I do have a major University Jazz studies degree and feel that I'm am fairly advanced in terms of my musical and theoretical knowledge. However, since college I have been mainly playing in cover band or similar situations where learning the parts was most important. Theory and creativity are less important in these senarios. There is not very much creativity involved in learning pop and rock cover tunes. You either play the part right or you don't. But now, for the 1st time I am playing in a group that does primarly original music. I want to leverage my musical knowledge to make the best music I can and contribute to the project by utilizing what I have learned. I hope this makes sense.

BTW- how cool is it to be abel to "talk" with Jeff about stuff like this?!?! Thanks for being so accessable to us all!! What a blessing!

It is sort of a blended-together-soupy- on going- mishmosh of musical advancement! Wow! I'm exhausted by that comment.

What I mean is that one learns facts, which is its own world. It contains its own rules, and it barely relates to any other area of music. Then you have real-time playing, eiother in gigs, jams, things like this. This world is unto itself as well and needs cultivating differently than the academic environment needs. Plus, there are sub-worlds of how to learn, what to learn, how to fix your mistakes, when and when not to play in time, all kinds of things.

Let's take Jimi Hendrix as an example: He couldn't read music and he sort of couldn't play outside of his area of expertise. But within his area, he cultivated over time a special manner to play. But, if you ever watched any tapes of Jimi writing on guitar or learning new music, he sounds rather average. The reason is because this was his version of the academic world that he participated in. He sort of knew that emotion and ability came after the tune, the solo, the comping was learned. Then we heard the results of what he worked on out of time, and often in a slightly sloppy manner, until he played real time music.

If you study "The Good Stuff" and if you play with "The Good Guys" and if you listen to yourself with a critical ear and try to improve, you can't but get better steadily. I hoped that I helped!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Yeah...how do ya get to Carnegie Hall? Right?

Then left!

 

[TimK]

It is sort of a blended-together-soupy- on going- mishmosh of musical advancement!

That clears is right up HA HA

But really your post does answer my question. Just thought there might be a sort of "magic bullet" answer so to speak that can apply towards making music similarly to learing the "facts" of music and practicing chord tones as you suggest/teach.

Follow up question: How do you personally go about being creative in your "real time" musical situations? what is your though process or method when asked to come up with an original bass part to a song? or is it more of the blended-together-soupy- on going- mishmosh of musical advancement

 

[JeffBerlin]

That clears is right up HA HA

But really your post does answer my question. Just thought there might be a sort of "magic bullet" answer so to speak that can apply towards making music similarly to learing the "facts" of music and practicing chord tones as you suggest/teach.

Follow up question: How do you personally go about being creative in your "real time" musical situations? what is your though process or method when asked to come up with an original bass part to a song? or is it more of the blended-together-soupy- on going- mishmosh of musical advancement

Accomplishing creative things in one's musical life happens as one practices creatively. If you are at home, you can write lines, you can listen to CD's and learn from them (eventually stopping sounding like what you have used to learn from by imitating it). Further, you should be in real-time situations a lot, equal to the time that you are practicing. Practicing is tough because one must regard new music in a hopefully unemotional way. This can be a little boring (unless you are a little twisted as I am and actually enjoy the practice experience). You practice for skill and knowldge, and you play for the elements that only live playing can unlock. You write by trying this and that, sometimes changing it, sometimes not. You experience the live playing experience by doing it as much as you can, but you should balance this with learning factual musical things as well. As usual , time comes from musical improvement, not a metronome. For that matter, improved live playing skills comes from playing live as knowledge of instrument and musical facts come from working on those things. It really is a mishmosh of daily activity, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly improving over weeks and most likely months. What have you guys got to lose by practicing and playing for a long time. You guys are going to live a long time, so you might as well make use of the time that you have and put it into your instrument and into music off the instrument.

 

[TimK]

Accomplishing creative things in one's musical life happens as one practices creatively. If you are at home, you can write lines, you can listen to CD's and learn from them (eventually stopping sounding like what you have used to learn from by imitating it). Further, you should be in real-time situations a lot, equal to the time that you are practicing. Practicing is tough because one must regard new music in a hopefully unemotional way. This can be a little boring (unless you are a little twisted as I am and actually enjoy the practice experience). You practice for skill and knowldge, and you play for the elements that only live playing can unlock. You write by trying this and that, sometimes changing it, sometimes not. You experience the live playing experience by doing it as much as you can, but you should balance this with learning factual musical things as well. As usual , time comes from musical improvement, not a metronome. For that matter, improved live playing skills comes from playing live as knowledge of instrument and musical facts come from working on those things. It really is a mishmosh of daily activity, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly improving over weeks and most likely months. What have you guys got to lose by practicing and playing for a long time. You guys are going to live a long time, so you might as well make use of the time that you have and put it into your instrument and into music off the instrument.

Very Good! I'm fortunate to being playing in live situations 3-5 times a week. So, now time hit the books more and let the Mish Mosh begin

I suppose the over all theme of this thread is pretty obvious when you really think about it. You get out of music what you put into it. Just be sure to be putting the Good stuff into it. Like Time, effort, the correct content and an honest look at why you are doing it and where you are at.

Thanks again Jeff! Lets hang next time your in Minneapolis! if you can take all the snow and cold

 

[JeffBerlin]

Very Good! I'm fortunate to being playing in live situations 3-5 times a week. So, now time hit the books more and let the Mish Mosh begin

I suppose the over all theme of this thread is pretty obvious when you really think about it. You get out of music what you put into it. Just be sure to be putting the Good stuff into it. Like Time, effort, the correct content and an honest look at why you are doing it and where you are at.

Thanks again Jeff! Lets hang next time your in Minneapolis! if you can take all the snow and cold

Minneapolis has very nice people. They used to come and see me play when I came through with whatever jazz group I happened to be playing with at the time.