Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

[JimmyM]

so that's about 50 bassists who have been asked to take over the bass slot in van halen. mikey must be a saint not to beat the crap out of eddie after all these years. jeez, who would have thought that sweet-looking dude with the big smile and even bigger guitar would have been such a backstabbing jerk?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Tim, you have gotten sucked into the Fergie trap! I have made this mistake in the past, and have found myself beating the forehead of common sense against the wall of frustration. You just need to ignore, ignore, ignore...Otherwise this thread will totally devolve into politics, fluff, and nincompoopery.

Yes Tim, great points but they apply to that situation, not music. Now why do i need caluclas in my life again and for what reasons would it have improved it up till now? Music is so much more subjective when we move away from the academic side. Jeff is saying why someone plays the blues, because they are badly educated and if they had the choice why O why would they choose the blues.

If not explain the remark in full, tell us of the worth of playing the blues, what we can learn, who we should listen to, etc...
Country music was later singled out for the same treatment.

Analogies as i have said before do not work because there can be analogies to make a case for anything. Analogies relate a student to music not music to a student. Since Jeff view is a personal one it has really no creedence. so here's an analogy, in the same way as a racisit or bigot cannot see offence in the words they say, consider Jeffs words the same.

It is not for the one who is talking to decide whether something is offensive it it for those who listen. Simply apologise and move on.

Engedi1 LOL, "develop into politics", then who's fault is that?
Read these threads again you will see it all comes from Jeff. The thread moves off music because Jeff instigates it..end of story. So i apoligise to you for that but i am only reacting to the points made, so if you want no politics or subjective info, then Jeff needs to stick to music.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think you are missing Jeff's point. Jeff is saying clearly there is a difference bewteen art and education. Jeff is no one to say WHY someone chooses to play what they play. Nor is he trying to. He is just saying you need to have all the education possible so you CAN make an educated choice about what it is YOU want to play. If you don't have the education, your choices are limited. That is how I'm understanding this conversation.

Here is an anology. Music to Math. Blues is a simple form of music (I IV V). Basic addition (1+1=2) is a simple form of math. Calculas is a more difficult form of math, in the same way, Jazz is a more difficult form of music. You can't do calculus if you don't know basic addition. But if you learn calculus you can certainly do basic addition. Once you have the complete education, then you can CHOOSE to either keep doing calculus or, maybe you're happy doing just addition. Or maybe something in between. When you eventually choose, that is when the ART comes into play. You need the full education so you can then make an educated choice of what you want to play, then make your ART out of that. It's not a knock on blues players. It;s just that SOME blues players are playing it because the don't have the education or tools to play other styles or more "factually" (not artfully!) challenging music. The same way a 1st grader is not going to be able to do calculus. The 1st grader does not have the education...yet. So his choices are limited.

That is the way I'm understanding it. Forgive me Jeff if I'm coveying your message incorrectly.

My suggestion is to ignore anybody and everybody who isn't here to make things easy and fun. Some people need to argue and have chosen to be here and do it.

Don't read their posts (I don't)! Some guys never go away because, possible they can't. They need me in their lives and simply cannot move on to another place. So be it! Just let's stick to our agenda of music and all that goes with it and do not answer anyone who clearly is not here for the good of us all. Thanks very much!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Tim, you have gotten sucked into the Fergie trap! I have made this mistake in the past, and have found myself beating the forehead of common sense against the wall of frustration. You just need to ignore, ignore, ignore...Otherwise this thread will totally devolve into politics, fluff, and nincompoopery.

It already has started. Just ignore anybody and everybody who insists that this thread become a soapbox. Some people make their reputation by what and how they speak over here and only one Gentleman has carved out a reputation (as engedi1 and a whole lot of others have spotted) as a person who must get validation And it will never stop!

As engedi1 said, "Tim, you have gotten sucked into the Fergie trap! I have made this mistake in the past, and have found myself beating the forehead of common sense against the wall of frustration. You just need to ignore, ignore, ignore...Otherwise this thread will totally devolve into politics, fluff, and nincompoopery."

Ignore anybody who does this on this site because (and remember this well) he is never going to go away. Ever! So just turn your backs.

 

[SuperFunkyPete]

Fergie, it's a waste of time to argue. Why don't you call it a day and go and relax?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Fergie, it's a waste of time to argue. Why don't you call it a day and go and relax?

LOL i am not arguing. I am relaxed i never waste my time.LOL
This is an open forum... do you know what that means?
Indulge me anyone and type your user name, or if your real name just put talkbass after it in a search engine, google is a good one.

I reply because i know it can be viewed or come up as a result in search engines. That gives a balanced view on what is being said if the search continues. So please ignore me if you want but it is not for this threads club as such that i post, it is for anyone with an internet access looking for information

Again i agree with about 98% of what Jeff says so what's the problem with what i post? I only reply to issues that are subjective been used as fact, or issues that are not fully explained or understood.....as i see them.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

It already has started. Just ignore anybody and everybody who insists that this thread become a soapbox. Some people make their reputation by what and how they speak over here and only one Gentleman has carved out a reputation (as engedi1 and a whole lot of others have spotted) as a person who must get validation And it will never stop!

Jeff you are the biggest soap box on here
My playing rep is assured because of what i play, not what i say.

 

[TimK]

Tim, you have gotten sucked into the Fergie trap! I have made this mistake in the past, and have found myself beating the forehead of common sense against the wall of frustration. You just need to ignore, ignore, ignore...Otherwise this thread will totally devolve into politics, fluff, and nincompoopery.

I know!!! D'oh! After I posted it I remembered Jeff's advice about ignoring some guys.

Live and learn. Thanks

 

[TimK]

It already has started. Just ignore anybody and everybody who insists that this thread become a soapbox. Some people make their reputation by what and how they speak over here and only one Gentleman has carved out a reputation (as engedi1 and a whole lot of others have spotted) as a person who must get validation And it will never stop!

As engedi1 said, "Tim, you have gotten sucked into the Fergie trap! I have made this mistake in the past, and have found myself beating the forehead of common sense against the wall of frustration. You just need to ignore, ignore, ignore...Otherwise this thread will totally devolve into politics, fluff, and nincompoopery."

Ignore anybody who does this on this site because (and remember this well) he is never going to go away. Ever! So just turn your backs.

Jeff you are right. My appologies.

On to music talk!

 

[Sonny Wade]

Mr. Berlin,

30 years ago, you presented an article in your Guitar Player bass column using the Beatles' Yesterday to demonstrate how to move up and down the neck in a step-wise fashion without resorting to always searching for root notes when changing chords during a solo. Is this brilliant lesson available anywhere on the internet?

And hey, hey...let's be careful out there.

 

[chadhargis]

Anyway....I actually have a music question.

Since low frequencies sound "muddied" when chorded, is it possible that lower notes might not harmonize as well?

The reason I ask, is last night I was noodling around playing to some old Gordon Lightfoot stuff (laugh if you will, it's got easy bass lines) and when I tried to play in the same key, but using a lower octave, it didn't sound "right" to me (sorry, my lack of theory limits me from using the proper term).

When I played in the same octave as the bass player on the track, it sounded fine. Even using the low B on the part of "If You Could Read My Mind" that drops down low sounded fine when played higher up the neck.....really good actually. Love reaching back for that B string as a fifth versus going the other direction. I'm a bass head, what can I say? I like to rattle things.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Mr. Berlin,

30 years ago, you presented an article in your Guitar Player bass column using the Beatles' Yesterday to demonstrate how to move up and down the neck in a step-wise fashion without resorting to always searching for root notes when changing chords during a solo. Is this brilliant lesson available anywhere on the internet?

And hey, hey...let's be careful out there.

I remember that lesson. It is about taking chords and playing (if I remember correctly) either scales or chord tones through the changes, connecting them with the nearest note in the next scale in the next chord.

I will change this lessons and exclude the scales because scales are vague and really do not state exact tonalities. But, chord tones do. You should arppegiate up and down the neck and go to the very nearest chord tone in the next chord and continue the process. The trick is that one can never go wrong in this exercise because you simply cannot hit a wrong chord tone in this exercise. But, since scales sometimes contain notes that do not represent well the chord that you are in, then you sometimes are connecting to bad pitches. This is one reason why I don't teach scales most of the time; they don't represent chords, but they only suggest their tonality.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff you are right. My appologies.

On to music talk!

Accepted! Good luck with turning your back, because some people never go away, and never will!

Onto the music!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Anyway....I actually have a music question.

Since low frequencies sound "muddied" when chorded, is it possible that lower notes might not harmonize as well?

The reason I ask, is last night I was noodling around playing to some old Gordon Lightfoot stuff (laugh if you will, it's got easy bass lines) and when I tried to play in the same key, but using a lower octave, it didn't sound "right" to me (sorry, my lack of theory limits me from using the proper term).

When I played in the same octave as the bass player on the track, it sounded fine. Even using the low B on the part of "If You Could Read My Mind" that drops down low sounded fine when played higher up the neck.....really good actually. Love reaching back for that B string as a fifth versus going the other direction. I'm a bass head, what can I say? I like to rattle things.

Some bass melodies never sound that good too low. But they mostly sound just fine higher up because most melodies are played by higher pitched instruments. Perhaps you simply played a melody too low to be sonically representative of its notes. If you can play what you played up an octave, you might find that it sounds just fine. But, this is just a thought because I am not sure about the music you are talking about.

 

[chadhargis]

What? You don't know Gordon Lightfoot's work? Don't you remember the 70's folk scare? LOL!

Seriously, thanks for weighing in. That's more or less what I felt. Also, the acoustics of the room I'm playing in are awful. It's my "man cave" workshop, and the tool cabinets and tools make awful rackets when I hit low notes. None of the pictures hang straight anymore either. Must be my fine Markbass combo. LOL!

 

[JeffBerlin]

What? You don't know Gordon Lightfoot's work? Don't you remember the 70's folk scare? LOL!

Seriously, thanks for weighing in. That's more or less what I felt. Also, the acoustics of the room I'm playing in are awful. It's my "man cave" workshop, and the tool cabinets and tools make awful rackets when I hit low notes. None of the pictures hang straight anymore either. Must be my fine Markbass combo. LOL!

You can roll some of the super low end sonics out of your amp just to hear the notes more clearly. Some guys (I don't know if you fall into this category) practice way too loudly. This is one reason for the hand problems, they are tearing at their strings in the assumption that this might be a manner to play with feeling. Turn down your amp, drop a little bit of the bass sonic, and allow the notes to ring a little more clearly out of your amp. Let me know if this makes a difference to your playing and your sound.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I know!!! D'oh! After I posted it I remembered Jeff's advice about ignoring some guys.

Live and learn. Thanks

Live and learn. Good luck! Chin up! Back turned! Ignoring those who should be ignored! There are a lot of threads for these people to go to. Let us get to the music!

 

[chadhargis]

Some guys (I don't know if you fall into this category) practice way too loudly. This is one reason for the hand problems

My wife makes sure I don't practice too loudly. Even my 5yo came down once and said, "Daddy, why are you always playing that bass, I can't hear the TV". LOL!

So yes, I was guilty of being a bit too loud. After your comment yesterday about not having soreness, I focused a lot of my attention on using the bare minimum effort when playing. I discovered that with my right hand a couple of weeks back. If I pluck softer, I get a better tone. But I didn't adjust my left hand technique. I was mashing the crap out of the strings. Last night I worked on just BARELY pressing them right before the fret. Low and behold, two things happened. My sound didn't change, and my fingers didn't get sore in about an hour and a half of playing.

See....I'm teachable!

 

[JeffBerlin]

My wife makes sure I don't practice too loudly. Even my 5yo came down once and said, "Daddy, why are you always playing that bass, I can't hear the TV". LOL!

So yes, I was guilty of being a bit too loud. After your comment yesterday about not having soreness, I focused a lot of my attention on using the bare minimum effort when playing. I discovered that with my right hand a couple of weeks back. If I pluck softer, I get a better tone. But I didn't adjust my left hand technique. I was mashing the crap out of the strings. Last night I worked on just BARELY pressing them right before the fret. Low and behold, two things happened. My sound didn't change, and my fingers didn't get sore in about an hour and a half of playing.

See....I'm teachable!

Good for you! You should hold a bass with a little more pressure that you hold a knife and fork. It doesn't take much pressure to make a note come from a bass. I've actually made a clear pitch come from a bass guitar using a piece of paper. It is hard to do, but the experient at least showed that way way less pressure from both hands will still make a bass speak and take a lot of wear and tear off your hands while doing it. Look at John Entwistle play. He sort of bounces his fingers off the strings, and looks as if he plays rather effortlessly in a band that was known for its ferocious attacking of their instruments.

A bass was built to do one thing and one thing only; produce notes. If one doesn't know what those notes are, or tries to use a lot of force to get those notes from their instrument, then they aren't using their instrument with much efficiency or capability. Learn well, pluck more gently, and you can double or triple your playing ability and certainly your knowledge of music represented on a bass guitar.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

It seems one of my comments caused offence, i apologise for this and will try and be more carefull with what it write and take nto consideration the broad spectrum of views. Please accept my apology if you felt it included you, sorry again.