We love our Jazz here! great Jazz scene.
PS- good edit! HA! I have "fond memories" from Minneapolis natives too!
Thanks Jeff, Back to work now.
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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II
- Thread starter Mark Wilson
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We love our Jazz here! great Jazz scene.
PS- good edit! HA! I have "fond memories" from Minneapolis natives too!
Thanks Jeff, Back to work now.
Mr. Berlin, as a curmudgeonly old rock guy, your views regarding music education, was the kick in the back side I needed to start overcoming my deficiencies as a musician. I can't say thank you enough.
This scares the daylights out of me as a new player. Unless you know what the "good stuff" is, you can't put it into anything.
I feel like a dog chasing my tail.
I have a really, really bad habit of throwing myself into things head first and wide freakin' open. I love a challenge. I hate settling for mediocrity. If I take something on, I want to be extremely proficient at it. I realize I may not have the time or ability to master it, but I want to be well above average at whatever I do.
Case in point, I started seriously riding motorcycles back in 2001. I've thrown my body down the asphalt a few times. I've ridden every chance I could get. Took riding schools from the masters. I now find that I can lap a given racetrack only a few seconds slower than professional riders. There isn't much I can't do on a motorcycle (that I am interested in doing). Like music theory....I felt it was important that I learn the physics of a motorcycle. How it worked. How to work on them.
I want to get to this level....but playing the bass:
Yes....this is me...
I didn't become a good rider by simply riding (practicing). I got there using a calculated method, along with some practical application, and plenty of pain (I have the scars to prove it). If I'd have done nothing but ride 15mph around in a parking lot, I'd never have progressed outside of the parking lot. I pushed myself, and continued to push myself until I was too fast for the street. I took it to the track, followed those better than me. Read and studied technique and applied those lessons.
I went on to teach others and am a certified motorcycle instructor. I can tell you exactly how I'd teach someone to ride. I wouldn't tell them, "Just go do the good stuff". That's a fine way to get someone killed on a motorcycle. You don't have that risk with a bass (unless you play a death metal show and suck...LOL!).
This is so fantastic for you to say. No reason to start flipping over your entire musical life for another direction as a player. But, there is nothing wrong in spending a little time each day on great solid musical practice. I am impressed with you for considering new things to work on.
Right now I am in the same situation as you are. In my case, I am hard at work practicing a bass part that I wrote out for my next CD. I think that I may have mentioned this in a former post, but Richard Drexler and I are going to record a short Ravel piece that doesn't have a playable bass part. So I wrote one, extracting notes from both the right and left hands of the piano part and put them together. Right now, this simple little 1 minute tune is the hardest bass part I ever played because it is entirely based on harmony that really has little logic on a bass neck. And yet, it is music to regard, to play.
You and I share the very same philosophy at this moment; learning new and significant musical fact, either in its simpler forms (as you may be doing) and in its more complicated forms (as I am working on!) The difference is only based on experience and nothing more. If you are learning great principles of music, simple or otherwize, then you and I are EXACTLY in the same boat. Cool, huh?
This scares the daylights out of me as a new player. Unless you know what the "good stuff" is, you can't put it into anything.
I feel like a dog chasing my tail.
I have a really, really bad habit of throwing myself into things head first and wide freakin' open. I love a challenge. I hate settling for mediocrity. If I take something on, I want to be extremely proficient at it. I realize I may not have the time or ability to master it, but I want to be well above average at whatever I do.
Case in point, I started seriously riding motorcycles back in 2001. I've thrown my body down the asphalt a few times. I've ridden every chance I could get. Took riding schools from the masters. I now find that I can lap a given racetrack only a few seconds slower than professional riders. There isn't much I can't do on a motorcycle (that I am interested in doing). Like music theory....I felt it was important that I learn the physics of a motorcycle. How it worked. How to work on them.
I want to get to this level....but playing the bass:
Yes....this is me...
I didn't become a good rider by simply riding (practicing). I got there using a calculated method, along with some practical application, and plenty of pain (I have the scars to prove it). If I'd have done nothing but ride 15mph around in a parking lot, I'd never have progressed outside of the parking lot. I pushed myself, and continued to push myself until I was too fast for the street. I took it to the track, followed those better than me. Read and studied technique and applied those lessons.
I went on to teach others and am a certified motorcycle instructor. I can tell you exactly how I'd teach someone to ride. I wouldn't tell them, "Just go do the good stuff". That's a fine way to get someone killed on a motorcycle. You don't have that risk with a bass (unless you play a death metal show and suck...LOL!).
"The Good Stuff" is my expression for musical academic fact. You teach "academic facts" to your students on how to ride a motorcycle. If you didn't, then you are are right. Somebody WOULD get killed. P.S. I get airsick on a swing!
I pretty much knew what you were talking about when you said, "The good stuff". Here's what my issue is....
This is the 84 page undergraduate catalog from the Blair School of Music:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I'm sure all these classes are full of "good stuff", but since I've not won the lotto, affording the tuition to seek my degree in music is pretty much out of the question. What I need is the really important "good stuff". The foundation. The fundamental elements everything else builds on. If it takes me 50 years to learn what a Blair graduate learns in 4 years, I'm fine with that....but where do I start? How can I apply it to playing? How can I get to the point where I can play a gig? Enjoy jamming with others? All the while growing my knowledge and increasing my skill.
That's more or less what I've been asking the past couple of days. I'll read books. I'll study my ass off if I have to, but if you Google search "Music Theory Book", the number of hits you get will be astounding. I can't read them all. I just want to read the BEST one.
Great riders got there by crashing a few times. My goal as a rider is to follow them around the track and learn from their mistakes so I don't have to make them. That's the approach I want to take with music. I don't want to "crash" or have a setback learning music or how to play. I want to maximize my time and put my efforts into learning and moving forward.
I know a good teacher is paramount, and I'm working on that, but other than having a good teacher, there has to be a laundry list of things every player should know or do to become proficient in both music theory and application.
I'm not like 90% of the people who pick up an instrument and want to play. They want to play covers, or be a "rock star". They get to the point where they can play a little, call themselves good, and don't deviate from their comfort zone (or stop playing altogether). I've waited years to start playing (much to my chagrin), and now that I've committed to do it, I'm ready to move forward aggressively.
This is the 84 page undergraduate catalog from the Blair School of Music:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I'm sure all these classes are full of "good stuff", but since I've not won the lotto, affording the tuition to seek my degree in music is pretty much out of the question. What I need is the really important "good stuff". The foundation. The fundamental elements everything else builds on. If it takes me 50 years to learn what a Blair graduate learns in 4 years, I'm fine with that....but where do I start? How can I apply it to playing? How can I get to the point where I can play a gig? Enjoy jamming with others? All the while growing my knowledge and increasing my skill.
That's more or less what I've been asking the past couple of days. I'll read books. I'll study my ass off if I have to, but if you Google search "Music Theory Book", the number of hits you get will be astounding. I can't read them all. I just want to read the BEST one.
Great riders got there by crashing a few times. My goal as a rider is to follow them around the track and learn from their mistakes so I don't have to make them. That's the approach I want to take with music. I don't want to "crash" or have a setback learning music or how to play. I want to maximize my time and put my efforts into learning and moving forward.
I know a good teacher is paramount, and I'm working on that, but other than having a good teacher, there has to be a laundry list of things every player should know or do to become proficient in both music theory and application.
I'm not like 90% of the people who pick up an instrument and want to play. They want to play covers, or be a "rock star". They get to the point where they can play a little, call themselves good, and don't deviate from their comfort zone (or stop playing altogether). I've waited years to start playing (much to my chagrin), and now that I've committed to do it, I'm ready to move forward aggressively.
To get what you want, then you have got to find somebody with a repertoir of information to teach. You, and everybody who are seeking bass instruction just have got to find somebody who can show you musical, not bass-oriented things. Being a good player doesn't mean that you will walk away with more musical knowledge. Peopl often are satisfied with 'feel-good" lessons. The teacher is cool, the message is positive, the demonstration about bass improvemen seems non-contradictory. One week later, students still haven't improved, still don't know what to practice, still are directionless! But, wasn't that a fun lesson????
Find a teacher with music, only music, music that relates to the harmonies of our various Western styles. If you are seeking to improve and are willing to pay a teacher to help you with this, then that teacher better have their act together because I wouldn't want to pay a dime if I didn' t know that i was going to leave that lesson with something more that a good vibe and positive inspiration as the lesson. I already have positive feelings about music because I chose to play it. But, if I don't know what those notes are and how to find them, then those teachers are not helping you to play better, not one little bit!
Probably 95% of people that pick up an instrument and want to be 'rock stars' haha, i was probably guilty of it but i've grown since... Sorry jeff I know this isn't the education side of music but i've recently bought a couple of bill evans albums (i'm new to jazz) and i just love his playing, i loved all his playing on kind of blue (1st jazz album i bought, essential)... But i've just listened to 'Lucky to be me' and it's just fantastic, as are all his solo pieces, who wouldn't love waltz for debby? I know you may look at his music from an academic point of view(im certainly not at that level) but i just wondered how much you enjoy bill evans' stuff on an artistic level? And i wanted to thank you for suggesting him... Now on to keith jarrett... Ps: still on the lookout for a great jazz teacher here in the UK, some progress but it's hard to know the right guys...
You can't get better via aggressive practicing. You can get better through steady practicing. Aggressive practicing more than implies performance and you can't perform what you haven't learned yet. If a swift resolution to your musical curiousity is what you want, I am sorry, but you aren't going to get it.
You get what you want by starting at the beginning and then learning how to read, how to solo, how harmony and melody and rhythm-type bass parts work. You learn slowly, steadily and give yourself a few months to de-mystify your instrument via musical means. If you can't go to Blair let's say, then go to somebody who teaches notes, harmonies, reading, chords, factual things. Go to a great teacher if you can find them. Read what I wrote above. What I said applies to you.
If you crashed on your bike and regard it as part of the learning process, every single bass player reading this now has "crashed" in their practicing, on their gigs. They have all, 100% of them screwed up, made mistakes and generally made a mess of how the learn and what they play. This is your musical future for awhile. If you are cool with this, then you can start to musically improve right away.
The trick is this: learn without expectations, or, at least too many expectations. You appear to have some daredevil in you. But, music isn't defined by a daredevil philosophy. It is defined by the need to express oneself through sound via the musical information that you know, and the instrument that you represent it with. Get a teacher and you will have a good beginning. Did I answer your questions? Let me know!
Part of the recipe is time. Once you read it and know it from a book, and apply it in playing, it also takes time. When you bake a cake, you mix all the "good stuff" ingredients in the right proportions, and put it in the pan, then pop it in the oven. But it isn't a cake until you give it some time in the oven.
Learning in music is a never ending journey. Whatever your level of playing. And time is a factor. There are no shortcuts.
How long, once you knew how to ride a motorcycle, did it take you to get to a professional level of performance? Do you still learn new things riding your motorcycle? Ways to improve?
Learning in music is a never ending journey. Whatever your level of playing. And time is a factor. There are no shortcuts.
How long, once you knew how to ride a motorcycle, did it take you to get to a professional level of performance? Do you still learn new things riding your motorcycle? Ways to improve?
Jeff, you're right.
I have some emails out to some well known teachers in the area. Ones I believe will fit the bill. I spoke with one last night, and his rates are more than double what I'm paying now, so I'd only be able to go a couple of times a month, but I believe two lessons a month with him would be worth more than 4 a month with my current teacher.
I am a firm believer that a teacher doesn't actually "teach" you anything. They facilitate your learning. Guide you to the water, so to speak, but it's up to you to drink it.
I have no issue with a teacher telling me, "Go buy <whatever> book and read it cover to cover. Do all the exercises and when you're done schedule another lesson and tell me what you learned". I don't expect to be spoon fed. In fact, I'd rather not be. Discovery is one of the wonderful and amazing parts of learning. Those "ah ha!" moments are priceless.
I have some emails out to some well known teachers in the area. Ones I believe will fit the bill. I spoke with one last night, and his rates are more than double what I'm paying now, so I'd only be able to go a couple of times a month, but I believe two lessons a month with him would be worth more than 4 a month with my current teacher.
I am a firm believer that a teacher doesn't actually "teach" you anything. They facilitate your learning. Guide you to the water, so to speak, but it's up to you to drink it.
I have no issue with a teacher telling me, "Go buy <whatever> book and read it cover to cover. Do all the exercises and when you're done schedule another lesson and tell me what you learned". I don't expect to be spoon fed. In fact, I'd rather not be. Discovery is one of the wonderful and amazing parts of learning. Those "ah ha!" moments are priceless.
You are right on course with your comments. Bill evans was a hero to many musicians on many instruments. I have a few solos that I transcribed, and, quite honestly, I think that he might be one of the best guys for a bass player to imitate. Yes, it is hard to do, not for beginning or some intermediate guys. Transcribing is hard. But Bill was a player who represented the chords so beautifully. His resolutions were glorius and his harmonic/melodic playing was one-of-a-kind. I am proud to say that I am the only electric bass player to ever play with Bill Evans. He invited me to sit in with him back in the 1970's when he played at the Village Vanguard. Truly a wonderful experience.
Well said! Time is the key, that is, the time to learn! Really, this is paramount if one wishes to accomplish something in music.
RE: Learning 'music facts' teacherless...
While I'll never say 'you can't get there from here' regarding self-study, I can say with reasonable confidence that any discipline that is worthy of having teachers who studied for years in order to teach the subject is a discipline best tackled under a teacher's guidance.
Yes, you can start from square one alone and slowly start to push that information into your head and apply it to a certain degree - but there will inevitably be a point where you simply don't understand the material - or worse, think you do but really don't and continue plowing forward under the illusion that you're learning it.
All areas of life have their naive participants. Cooks, web designers, carpenters, luthiers... some of the naive practitioners even develop a level of expertise. But the reason there are teachers is because learning these things requires a significant amount of quality time spent learning quality material under the supervision of those who can recognize where you're strengths are and what you're not fully understanding.
I am not trying to discourage self-study - but I'd say if you cannot find a qualified music teacher to work with, the likelihood that you'll be able to successfully self-teach yourself music theory and facts is questionable. Possible, sure... even plausible to a lesser degree - but again, there's a good reason music teachers exist.
Using myself as an example - I've got many years logged in formal music education courses and I am currently putting myself through a refresher (20 years is a LONG time and things go stale pretty quickly) - and after going through the first few units and checking work against the answer keys - I've found many areas where I thought I 'got it' - but clearly missed. I've been able to go back and figure out where my misunderstandings were so far, but without the foundation of music education I already have, that would have been about impossible and I'd definitely have needed to seek out a music educator to get square.
While I'll never say 'you can't get there from here' regarding self-study, I can say with reasonable confidence that any discipline that is worthy of having teachers who studied for years in order to teach the subject is a discipline best tackled under a teacher's guidance.
Yes, you can start from square one alone and slowly start to push that information into your head and apply it to a certain degree - but there will inevitably be a point where you simply don't understand the material - or worse, think you do but really don't and continue plowing forward under the illusion that you're learning it.
All areas of life have their naive participants. Cooks, web designers, carpenters, luthiers... some of the naive practitioners even develop a level of expertise. But the reason there are teachers is because learning these things requires a significant amount of quality time spent learning quality material under the supervision of those who can recognize where you're strengths are and what you're not fully understanding.
I am not trying to discourage self-study - but I'd say if you cannot find a qualified music teacher to work with, the likelihood that you'll be able to successfully self-teach yourself music theory and facts is questionable. Possible, sure... even plausible to a lesser degree - but again, there's a good reason music teachers exist.
Using myself as an example - I've got many years logged in formal music education courses and I am currently putting myself through a refresher (20 years is a LONG time and things go stale pretty quickly) - and after going through the first few units and checking work against the answer keys - I've found many areas where I thought I 'got it' - but clearly missed. I've been able to go back and figure out where my misunderstandings were so far, but without the foundation of music education I already have, that would have been about impossible and I'd definitely have needed to seek out a music educator to get square.
No you wouldn't....I'd teach you the basics before you ever started the thing up. I'd have you literally pushing the bike around to get a feel for it before you ever heard it run. Baby steps. However, I could tell you within about an hour or two of watching your progress weather or not you EVER needed to ride on the street. Some people just don't have "it". They don't have the mental ability to process information at a rapid rate. They don't have the coordination. And then there is the thing I see most....they don't have the desire. It's a passing thing for them. "I want to learn to ride", but they don't have that hunger to ride. That nagging knot in the pit of their stomach that drives them to soak up everything there is to know. Find a great rider, and you'll find that desire....that hunger.
I'm still not at a "professional" level, and never will be due to time and money constraints. That I can accept. There is always someone better. I started riding in July of 2001, and on July 5th, 2004....I had my epiphany. The moment I could just ride. I no longer fought the bike. I rode relaxed and things came to me without my trying. I did my first track day in October of that year. I went out, bent it in to the tightest turn on the track, and dropped my knee to the deck.
As far as learning new things....no....I don't learn new things. I have reached the point where I know exactly what I need to do, but don't have the talent (or guts), equipment, or money to do it. Things happen very quickly at upward of 150mph, and while you might know what to do, it's often better to take the safe way out and not test the theory. I've seen buddies flown out of race tracks in helicopters....I don't want a helicopter ride.
I can't believe you got to sit in with Bill Evans! that is amazing. He is one of my absolute favorites as well, although I have never tried to transcribe his stuff. What do you think of transcribing Scott Lafaro? I guess I am more inclined to transcribe bass player but maybe I should expand my horizons...
Time to go! I had a busy day (you cannot IMAGINE the things that I have to deal with between family, The Players School of Music, practicing, working on my next CD, writing music, dealing with business, etc, etc.) If I knew that being an adult was so hard, I would have stayed in the third grade. More tomorrow. I am not on the road for a few weeks and so I have time here if anyone has any questions. Best to all.
My strong suggestion is to NOT transcribe Scott LaFaro or most other bass players. Go to the greatest sources of melody and harmony. They are practically always non-bass players.
Ciao.
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