Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

[JeffBerlin]

I played violin for about 20 years, went to Berklee for three semesters (about 20 years ago), and I have a strong theoretical foundation. I can read well, play decently over changes, transcribe, play by ear, etc. I have had a lot of good teachers on violin, guitar, bass, ear-training, and arranging. I'm studying "the right stuff" and still learning lots every day.

Of course, it's not perfect. There is still a gap between what I know and what I can do in realtime. I can't play everything I can hear. So I'm just wondering about your personal experience as a world-class player. So my question again is about whether *you personally* are "calculating" and "thinking theory" when you play, or are you in general hearing and playing freely without the conciously using all the learning you have done?

Only when I practice do I think about things. Rarely when I play. I am a product of "Yesterday" and yesterday is a result of "the day before that". And so on, and so on! Every music plays today what they learned or experienced yesterday. If you take this experience and continue backwards, you will arrive at the very first day of your musical life, sort of like arriving at the moment of the Big Bang. This is why I have always told people about what to learn, and to play, play, play. The rest is inspiration and vision of music. We are what we have put in to our music. If one puts metronomes and blues into their study life, then they cannot, ever, rise above anything that does not refer to a clicking box and the keys of E, A, F and Bb only. If this if this is their choice then they will get their wish.

But, in your case, because you know "The Good Stuff" you should keep trying to learn more and more "Good Stuff" all the time, as Mike Stern and I have done for over 35 years with Charlie Banacos. Plus, you should play with players as good or better than you are. Finally, you should seek out a vision of music for yourself, your way, what you hear, as you hear it. But, don't forget that you should also be aware of the sideman's crdeo, to provide what one is asked to provide. In many ways, this is the most musically challenging principle of them all, to play in a lot of different ways, in a lot of different styles, in a lot of different keys and with a lot of different sidemen standing next to you. One has to be a hell of a musician to do that!.

After all of this, then this is about the entire description of one's future in music; if you put bad lessons into your lives, you will play badly. I heard from somebody that they endorsed practicing blindfolded to develop their other senses as a bass player. Another bogus bit of nonmusical fluff, one of the most ridiculous practice methods I ever heard of. Imagine! Denying one's good sense instead of using it to the fullest. Practice smartly and you will go far. Don't play nonsensical stuff (whatever that is) and keep learning "The Good Stuff" so that you can keep growing as a player. I hope that I helped.

 

[engedi1]

So my question again is about whether *you personally* are "calculating" and "thinking theory" when you play, or are you in general hearing and playing freely without the conciously using all the learning you have done?

I know your question was directed at Jeff, but I have a similar eduction to yours, and I feel that I can give my $0.02. It is a weakness of the classical traditional (very generally speaking of course) that we are very focuses on technical mastery or learning difficult music that we are surprised when we struggle with improvising. I have a degree in classical DB studies, and can play Bach cello suite on the EB all day long, but struggle improvising a simple solo over blues changes. Soloing on the bass is foreign and I think that someone who has mastered it like JB, or many others, don't think about theory. Their ears and hands just know what needs to be played, based off of countless hours of study and experience.
I, like you I think, have a weakness of trying to "think" about the theory. "Here is a flat 5 chord, better play Ab instead of A" However, I only struggle like this in a jazz context, because the harmony is more complicated, and I haven't mastered it. On the flipside, when playing rock or blues, I don't think about the harmony, but let the ears and hands take over. That is why I approached my teacher and asked him to help me learn jazz harmony better, and how to apply it on the EB, since my classical training wasn't really helping me as much with it.
If you read Jeff's earlier posts, you will see that he is always transcribing Keith Jarret and other geniuses, to try to teach his ear more harmony, with the goal of improving his performance.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I know your question was directed at Jeff, but I have a similar eduction to yours, and I feel that I can give my $0.02. It is a weakness of the classical traditional (very generally speaking of course) that we are very focuses on technical mastery or learning difficult music that we are surprised when we struggle with improvising. I have a degree in classical DB studies, and can play Bach cello suite on the EB all day long, but struggle improvising a simple solo over blues changes. Soloing on the bass is foreign and I think that someone who has mastered it like JB, or many others, don't think about theory. Their ears and hands just know what needs to be played, based off of countless hours of study and experience.
I, like you I think, have a weakness of trying to "think" about the theory. "Here is a flat 5 chord, better play Ab instead of A" However, I only struggle like this in a jazz context, because the harmony is more complicated, and I haven't mastered it. On the flipside, when playing rock or blues, I don't think about the harmony, but let the ears and hands take over. That is why I approached my teacher and asked him to help me learn jazz harmony better, and how to apply it on the EB, since my classical training wasn't really helping me as much with it.
If you read Jeff's earlier posts, you will see that he is always transcribing Keith Jarret and other geniuses, to try to teach his ear more harmony, with the goal of improving his performance.

It is hard to master jazz harmony, but it is easy to master just a small segment of it each week. Do this for a long time, and I guarantee musical results that will be substantial. But, learning music is like shaving; when was that moment when shaving became necessary? Who knows? It just happened. So does musical imrprovement.

P.S. I could show guys how to improvize in one hour, but it is hard to do on the net. Find a teacher who plays and teaches jazz.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I have no idea what reharmed pentatonics are. Sorry!

Pretty simple, actually. It's a Dave Liebman/Joe Farrell/Jaco trick.
Play a G Major Pentatonic (GABDEG) over a Cmaj7 chord. here are the scale/chord extensions
G=5th
A=6th (or 13th of a Dom. 7th)
B=7th
D=9th
E=3rd
Now, over a F maj7
G=9th
A=3rd
B=+11 or #11
D=6th (or 13 of a Dom. 7th)
E=7th
Now over a G6 chord
G=R
A=9
B=3
D=5
E=6
The scale stays the same, but playing a different chord under it changes the harmony and more interestingly the upper extensions. I believe I cited this in a thread about Jaco-he does this in Continuum over an E69 chord and plays E, B, and F# pentatonic scales in the same run to create different harmonic tensions.
The best book I've seen on this is "Pentatonic Scales for Jazz Improvisation" by Ray Ricker (Eastman SOM Jazz Woodwind Instructor).
Hope this explains it.

 

[John Wentzien]

Thanks Roy!

 

[engedi1]

. I heard from somebody that they endorsed practicing blindfolded to develop their other senses as a bass player. Another bogus bit of nonmusical fluff, one of the most ridiculous practice methods I ever heard of. Imagine! Denying one's good sense instead of using it to the fullest. Practice smartly and you will go far.

I not only practice blindfolded, but with one leg tied behind my back (especially awkward when sitting)

 

[SuperFunkyPete]

I not only practice blindfolded, but with one leg tied behind my back (especially awkward when sitting)

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

Practicing isn't necessary! Whatever gave you that idea...

I just had a play of Jeff's bass this afternoon for a bit, and my word, the action is about as low as I've ever played or seen. It's just about a fretless, the frets are so flat! It's absolutely ridiculous. The bass played itself.

So. Obviously no practice needed to improve , I just need to go and find one of these, then get a tech to file the frets just about out of existence, and I'm done...

I'm off to lower my action

Sorry, back to the topic...

 

[smeet]

Only when I practice do I think about things. Rarely when I play. I am a product of "Yesterday" and yesterday is a result of "the day before that". And so on, and so on! Every music plays today what they learned or experienced yesterday. If you take this experience and continue backwards, you will arrive at the very first day of your musical life, sort of like arriving at the moment of the Big Bang. This is why I have always told people about what to learn, and to play, play, play. The rest is inspiration and vision of music. We are what we have put in to our music. If one puts metronomes and blues into their study life, then they cannot, ever, rise above anything that does not refer to a clicking box and the keys of E, A, F and Bb only. If this if this is their choice then they will get their wish.

But, in your case, because you know "The Good Stuff" you should keep trying to learn more and more "Good Stuff" all the time, as Mike Stern and I have done for over 35 years with Charlie Banacos. Plus, you should play with players as good or better than you are. Finally, you should seek out a vision of music for yourself, your way, what you hear, as you hear it. But, don't forget that you should also be aware of the sideman's crdeo, to provide what one is asked to provide. In many ways, this is the most musically challenging principle of them all, to play in a lot of different ways, in a lot of different styles, in a lot of different keys and with a lot of different sidemen standing next to you. One has to be a hell of a musician to do that!.

After all of this, then this is about the entire description of one's future in music; if you put bad lessons into your lives, you will play badly. I heard from somebody that they endorsed practicing blindfolded to develop their other senses as a bass player. Another bogus bit of nonmusical fluff, one of the most ridiculous practice methods I ever heard of. Imagine! Denying one's good sense instead of using it to the fullest. Practice smartly and you will go far. Don't play nonsensical stuff (whatever that is) and keep learning "The Good Stuff" so that you can keep growing as a player. I hope that I helped.

Thanks Jeff, that really does help. I am indeed trying to learn more good stuff than ever before, and it really is working. I can't imagine how fast I would improve if I could do this full time!

Thanks also to engedi1. My classical background did indeed hamper my improvisation for years. I did eventually get over that, it's been 25+ years since I first left the exclusively classical camp. Part of the solution was switching instruments, since I approached guitar, bass, and sequencing very differently than the violin. Another part was forcing myself to play in unfamiliar situations, playing metal, country, funk, jazz, etc. with people who were very comfortable in those genres. It was very difficult but very rewarding too.

I'm not a professional musician, but I have a serious professional attitude about learning the music. It sometimes makes it harder to find people to play with, because most other serious players are professionals, and although I have the skills I don't have the time to play to take too many good gigs.

By the way Jeff, I also love practicing! I guess that makes two of us?

 

[engedi1]

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

Practicing isn't necessary! Whatever gave you that idea...

I just had a play of Jeff's bass this afternoon for a bit, and my word, the action is about as low as I've ever played or seen. It's just about a fretless, the frets are so flat! It's absolutely ridiculous. The bass played itself.

So. Obviously no practice needed to improve , I just need to go and find one of these, then get a tech to file the frets just about out of existence, and I'm done...

I'm off to lower my action

Sorry, back to the topic...

I have never understood those who promote high action. It makes a difference on Double Bass, especially for arco work, but I can't see why it makes a difference on electric. Does fret height matter? I have also heard this same comment about Pino Palladino's P bass, that the fret's were almost flush with the fingerboard.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

Practicing isn't necessary! Whatever gave you that idea...

I just had a play of Jeff's bass this afternoon for a bit, and my word, the action is about as low as I've ever played or seen. It's just about a fretless, the frets are so flat! It's absolutely ridiculous. The bass played itself.

So. Obviously no practice needed to improve , I just need to go and find one of these, then get a tech to file the frets just about out of existence, and I'm done...

I'm off to lower my action

Sorry, back to the topic...

What's his quote?: "You don't want muscles in your hand, you want muscles in your sound"

 

[engedi1]

Thanks Roy!

+1. We are lucky to have input from two great teachers...Thanks Roy. Really interesting idea...

 

[Roy Vogt]

I think I'll hang out here and over in the Double Bass forums for awhile-I've been over in Bassists which tends to degenerate into the musical equivalent of:
"Who is the greatest boxer of all time-Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey, Mohammed Ali, or ....?"
And then much arguing ensues...
I think if I need that in my life I'll just go to a Sports Bar at Happy Hour

 

[eggfan]

I think I'll hang out here and over in the Double Bass forums for awhile-I've been over in Bassists which tends to degenerate into the musical equivalent of:
"Who is the greatest boxer of all time-Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey, Mohammed Ali, or ....?"
And then much arguing ensues...
I think if I need that in my life I'll just go to a Sports Bar at Happy Hour

You only posted that so Jeff will jump in to mention Joe Frazier.

(Besides, everyone knows the correct answer is Joe Louis.)

 

[Roy Vogt]

You only posted that so Jeff will jump in to mention Joe Frazier.

(Besides, everyone knows the correct answer is Joe Louis.)

You caught me! <lol>

 

[chadhargis]

Got my first lesson with my new teacher tonight. Basically went back to square one and worked from there.

I got homework. Lots of it actually. A real practice plan.

I think I'm getting the "good stuff".

 

[Roy Vogt]

Got my first lesson with my new teacher tonight. Basically went back to square one and worked from there.

I got homework. Lots of it actually. A real practice plan.

I think I'm getting the "good stuff".

Righteous! Go for it....

 

[chadhargis]

We did use a metronome, and technique was mentioned.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

I have never understood those who promote high action. It makes a difference on Double Bass, especially for arco work, but I can't see why it makes a difference on electric. Does fret height matter? I have also heard this same comment about Pino Palladino's P bass, that the fret's were almost flush with the fingerboard.

Actually, it's funny...I was listening to "The Return", that Return To Forever reunion record and it almost sounded like Stanley's action was TOO low. Like, you could hear fret buzz and that sort of thing.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Actually, it's funny...I was listening to "The Return", that Return To Forever reunion record and it almost sounded like Stanley's action was TOO low. Like, you could hear fret buzz and that sort of thing.

Stanley plays right over the end of the fingerboard, almost like he's playing upright. Combined with big hands and a 30" scale on his Alembic, he tends to have that "clatter" as part of his sound.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

Plus, he likes to do those crazy bends, too: "Hey, I'm the Albert King of the bass!"