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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

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#21
nortonrider said:
Good morning Jeff. Great letter.
Still, you gotta stand up for what you believe in. Stick to your guns - as my grandpa used to say.

I'm not much good at sugar coating things either. Your tone has never been an issue with me, I have always tried to take to heart your teachings.

But Man, I just can't get into Jazz. I don't like listening to most of it and have no desire to learn it. So, with this attitude, am I just destined to never reach my potential?

Take Slap/Popping for example. I have tried, and I believe that I just physically can't do it (my thumb just dosen't flop around like others). I have pretty much resigned myself to not being able to play thay style.

Any advice for tailoring my musical education to meet my personal expectations/needs/wants?
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I would suggest that you separate jazz from jazz studies. One learns one way and play in another. If you took, say, a jazz line and put it through two Marshall stacks at full volume while the drummer was smashing out two and four, I challenge anyone to call you a jazzer.

Jazz is actually an art form that I don't recommend to people to pursue. Few care about it anymore. But, the educational elements are phenomenal. You will triple maybe quadruple your playing and knowledge of music if you practice jazz exercises. There's no other music that I know of that equals even the related-to-every-other-musical-style-out-there connection as jazz harmony does.
 
#22
AltGrendel said:
You know, I was thinking about this topic and I think I came up with a baseball analogy.

If you want to be a better batter, you want to go up against a pitcher with a wide variety of pitches. Jazz will throw anything your way, fast ball, curve ball, slider, knuckle ball, even sneak in the occasional spit ball.

3/4 in the treble cleff while playing 5/4 in the bass? You got it.
A pentuple within a triplet? Sure.
Chords that will make your fingers scream? Sure.
..and have it all happen right now!!!!

Yes, other forms of music have this, but jazz is much more likely to have it. And you must admit that European classical music didn't have much (if any) of that until jazz became more popular there.

Just a thought.
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It is a good analogy. This is why they call it batting PRACTICE. P.S. Did anyone know that Jack Nicklaus, one of the greatest golfer who ever played the game, used to work on his grip during the off season? Working on your grip is like a top musician working on playing whole notes. But, he knew the value of practice and consideration of the basement floor foundation to be the best golfer he could be. I would love the same thing for musicians. But it starts with music first.
 
#24
refbassist said:
I usually show my students How to read and get to know music fundamentals but somehow it seems that 1 out of 10 continue with the lessons as the rest find it easier to to look for tabs to play their favorite songs in a wrong way!
so any suggestions on how to keep it more interesting and make youngsters want to learn real music?!
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Here is a typical Jeff controversy. I don't think that some people who call themselves musicians should stay in music. Today, witnessing musical success is a remote control button away. It is exciting, attractive to see and it gets a lot of kids wound up to do this. If being a cab driver was as exciting to people as playing a guitar, there would be tons of cab schools and driving shows on TV. It is the glitter of music that got so many people into playing, including the guys who should have stayed fans, instead of trying to be colleagues.

I have a firm stance about this: in music ed, it's my way or the highway. This weeds out the fakers right away. All my students are into it and practice hard. They love the music and they tolerate the uncomfortable reality of learning music out of time and dealing with new practice principles. In my case, this works great. But, there have been several times at The Players School of Music when I told clients to leave. They were taking up my time by never doing their work. All I have ever asked from my guys is to do the work. Nothing else! I am maybe the easiest going teacher there is because I know that mistakes will happen and I don't care. They will be fixed. But just do the work. For this, all our guys are serious from the pure beginner to the advanced guys.

I should remember that you did mention kids, not adults. In this case, just be more fun about it. Put a box of cookies on the shelf and tell them that if they do well, they get a couple of Chip Ahoys. Heck, I'd do more work for a couple of cookies like that.
 
#26
bench said:
hi jeff,

great to have you back and thanks again for spending time with us here.

i have a question regarding sightreading. i know you could read treble clef from your "violin-childhood". i´d like to be able to read bass and treble clef so i´d like to know if you think it´s better to learn one until you "have it" and then learn the other one or is it better to jump between the two??

peace bench
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I'm not so sure that it is simply a case of one first the other second. I learned treble clef first then I learned bass clef, which was way easy to learn because of my violin background. You can do both at the same time. They will separate out without confusion.
 
#27
Hi,
I have been thinking a lot about trying to come to the Player's School for the week long session in March. I am not a young dude, I have been playing like 40 years but I'm still trying to learn. I am a teacher and feel it's important I continue to upgrade my skills. Are you still accepting students and do you think it would be worthwhile for an older guy to attend the week long session? THX
!
 
#29
JeffBerlin said:
Here is a typical Jeff controversy. I don't think that some people who call themselves musicians should stay in music. Today, witnessing musical success is a remote control button away. It is exciting, attractive to see and it gets a lot of kids wound up to do this. If being a cab driver was as exciting to people as playing a guitar, there would be tons of cab schools and driving shows on TV. It is the glitter of music that got so many people into playing, including the guys who should have stayed fans, instead of trying to be colleagues.

I have a firm stance about this: in music ed, it's my way or the highway. This weeds out the fakers right away. All my students are into it and practice hard. They love the music and they tolerate the uncomfortable reality of learning music out of time and dealing with new practice principles. In my case, this works great. But, there have been several times at The Players School of Music when I told clients to leave. They were taking up my time by never doing their work. All I have ever asked from my guys is to do the work. Nothing else! I am maybe the easiest going teacher there is because I know that mistakes will happen and I don't care. They will be fixed. But just do the work. For this, all our guys are serious from the pure beginner to the advanced guys.

I should remember that you did mention kids, not adults. In this case, just be more fun about it. Put a box of cookies on the shelf and tell them that if they do well, they get a couple of Chip Ahoys. Heck, I'd do more work for a couple of cookies like that.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply,think beer might work better as they are not as young :hyper:
 
#30
bassvi said:
Hi,
I have been thinking a lot about trying to come to the Player's School for the week long session in March. I am not a young dude, I have been playing like 40 years but I'm still trying to learn. I am a teacher and feel it's important I continue to upgrade my skills. Are you still accepting students and do you think it would be worthwhile for an older guy to attend the week long session? THX
!
Click to expand...

Sure. We get lots of older guys around my age, even older certainly younger. If you can come to The One Week Intensive in March, you will go home a totally different player, guaranteed! Actually I HAVE to guarantee musical imrovement because I talk so much about what does and does not work in musical improvement that I have to put up or shut up. Guys come away from this even totally changed. Ask anyone who as attended.
 
#31
refbassist said:
Thank you for your reply,think beer might work better as they are not as young :hyper:
Click to expand...

Funny. Tell them straight; they came to you for musical improvement. You are the boss and you know what they need. If they can't deal with this, then they aren't cut out to be students. They have to toe the line or they have to find a teacher who is more into a Disneyland approach to teaching.
 
#32
I postd this on the "old thread" last night and see that it stopped so I thought I'd repost this here.


Jeff-
Could you talk more in depth about practicing chords and chord tones? I'm assuming you mean to learn and understand the nomanclature (sp?), and knowing the difference bewteen major and minor chords, dominant 7th etc... the basic theory stuff. also, how chord related to each other such as cadences etc...

Does your point of "learn Chords and Chord tones" include more than just what I have mentioned above? If so could you elaborate?

Also what do think is the best way to practice this? on the piano? on the bass? any excersise or methods you have for this?:)

Thanks!:)
 
#34
Thanks for taking the time to share with us, Jeff. I've learned a lot about being a musician, a student and a teacher from you.
What is your opinion about learning jazz on the double bass? I consider myself primarily an electric bassist who dabbles in upright bass. Did you play DB and did it help your electric technique?
 
#35
Hi Jeff, first of all, thanks for sharing your time and knowledge with us in this forum.

I'd like to know if you can tell us a complete method to work sight reading and to get better at it.

other question is what to practice and how to practice to get a jazz vocabulary on the instrument

and last question, how do you practice walking bass lines (I love the way you "walk") and get better (or good) at it.

thanks in advance for your time and advices
 
#36
Quote from last nights old thread:
(from Craig)Thanks for the myspace posts...very informative.....I am thinking a week at your school (more if I could afford it), and continue with a NYC private teacher is starting to look nice to me.

hey Jeff,
I posted last night about my college dilemma...commuting and wondering about being able to acquire the knowledge in Jazz without the college atmosphere. Being 48 yrs young...this has been a great experience, City College in NYC has a very good program, John Pattitucci is on faculty. I do notice a little bit of a prejudice towards electric bass players(such as myself)...the purists kind of look down upon the electric players(not Mr. Pattitucci). I guess I will access the situation at the end of the semester. It is really up to me, no matter what the decision is, to put the right effort and energy in the journey of learning, with good guidance!!!
 
#37
Jeff,

Thank you for your willingness to pick up the conversation again!

Would you advise a fairly new bass player to start with a short- term program at the Players School of Music, or would the 80 week course be the way to go for someone that really has the desire and discipline to learn?

Thanks,
Bryan
 
#38
JeffBerlin said:
Morning to all. Jon Packard correctly stopped the last thread that was going and it was partly my fault. I admit it! Some of the comment directed at me ticked me off, and when things calmed down, I was still mad. My fault. I'm only human!

I still will not answer some guys no matter what they write. We are divorced! But I would like to start this new thread up if you are interested in continuing discussing musical things with me. Sometimes I am here, and sometimes I leave. If I am gone, ask Roy Vogt if he is free. This is a smart man and he has way better communication skills than I have.

Here is a letter that I wrote to Jon Herrera at Bass Player magazine. I thought to show it to you guys first and get your input.

Jeff's Letter.

I’ve been busy touring and playing quite a lot in 2009. 2010 looks to also be a time of great musical happenings as well. Playing music is the core that keeps me alive, healthy and happy. I continue to meet so many great players on all instruments, and I get a chance to go to places and experience things that are other-worldly. Music took me around the world. It got me into these pages and it opened doors to possibilities here at home that were fantastic. For all of these opportunities, I’ve been busy touring and playing quite a lot in 2009. 2010 looks to also be a time of great musical happenings as well. Playing music is the core that keeps me alive, healthy and happy. I continue to meet so many great players on all instruments, and I get a chance to go to places and experience things that are other-worldly. Music took me around the world. It got me into these pages and it opened doors to possibilities here at home that were fantastic. For all of these opportunities, I am grateful.

With the status that I have gained in music, one thing that I used it for was to promote great musical educational principles and the pursuit of music in its highest levels. It is a hard thing to be a good musician, and in this “instant gratification” era that we live in, it can be even harder for some players who aren’t learning correctly. And so, I argued for a higher academic standard for players to pursue. But, my tone and firm stance bothered a lot of people.

This stops today! The world is a big place and there are lots of opportunities to try out different ways to learn. If I have a problem with these methods, it is MY problem, not yours. Therefore, I apologize to each and every teacher, school, camp, intensive, program and DVD artist that I may have blanketed into being considered lower standards of learning. This was wrong of me and I won’t do it again!

Yet, I still hold to everything that I ever stated in regards to being solid methods of learning. But, if some don’t hold to them as I do, then there are lots of musical opportunities for you to check out to see what you can find. I still will champion the musical directions that I believe in. But, I would like to join the family of music educators instead of arguing against them, if they will let me. Again, I apologize for this method of communication. It won’t happen anymore.

Malcolm X was asked why he was so firm or condemning in his racial stances. He answered, “My personal problem is never solved as long as the problem is not solved for all of our people in this country.” This is how I feel about music. It is hard for me to feel good about music ed as long as some players who wish to improve aren’t getting what they need in music education. But, I can’t blanket music ed as I did and I never will again. I may still say that “this is the best” but, I will never say that “this is the worst”. Those days are over. Good luck to all in your musical endeavors.

Wow! I feel like Scrooge on Christmas morning. And it is a nice feeling!

Love to all,

Jeff
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Mr. Berlin,

Great letter, but note the above before you send it off!;) (the blue and red are the same)
I actually took the time to read your whole post as I usually do.

Keep doing what you do sir.

Thank You.
 
#39
I happen to agree w/ your views and methods on music ed. As a youngster I was told the same thing many times but I insisted I was going to be a rock star. Big mistake. Had I listened and not gone the self taught route I might be more than a mid 50's local hero now taking lessons in jazz theory and reading. Jeff's advice and some good lessons from Carol Kaye have helped me immensely in becoming a better sight reader and expanding my knowledge. I can now play and understand more of what I hear...because I hear more. I do think the lighter aproach will help tho Jeff, even tho I have always agreed and understood your stance and frustration.
 
#40
TimK said:
I postd this on the "old thread" last night and see that it stopped so I thought I'd repost this here.


Jeff-
Could you talk more in depth about practicing chords and chord tones? I'm assuming you mean to learn and understand the nomanclature (sp?), and knowing the difference bewteen major and minor chords, dominant 7th etc... the basic theory stuff. also, how chord related to each other such as cadences etc...

Does your point of "learn Chords and Chord tones" include more than just what I have mentioned above? If so could you elaborate?

Also what do think is the best way to practice this? on the piano? on the bass? any excersise or methods you have for this?:)

Thanks!:)
Click to expand...

Nothing defines harmony as clearly as a chord. Chord tones are simply the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the chord. There are around ten, give or take, chord types that mostly cover all of contemporary music. Playing the chord tones in inversions all over the bass is a great way to establish an understanding of chords. They don't make for good walking lines, but for academic soloing, they are fantastic. Up and down the neck is the way to go, also in different patterns because this re-establishes using the same information in different ways.
 
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