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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

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#521
fdeck said:
I think, without answering in absolute terms, the question might be which one gets more emphasis. My classical teachers had me practice scales, but they never taught me a wide variety of chords. Also, widespread advice for those who seek to learn jazz is to learn all of the modes. It is certainly a reasonable matter of debate whether that's more important than learning chords.

And of course we end up learning both scales and chords, so it really does boil down to what comes first, what gets more emphasis, and what teaching methods seem to work best.
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Yes that's it ! I really think they should be learn together because they belong to each other but JB says that chord tones should be learn first and then later on learn the scales. To me,said like that doesn't make sense unless there is a very particular path he wants to use to make some points.
But again I really believe a bass player should know as much as possible about harmony and chord functions then the piano player or the guitar player because our choice of notes have an impact on the harmony within the band.

To me I think it is really important to know about chord functions and theirs relatives modes and scales. Then after when you approach your chord tones you know what is chromatic and is diatonic and the choice of note will be 100% proof.

Sly
 
#524
John Wentzien said:
I think it is worth learning EVERYTHING you can about Music..
If you are gonnna be a Musician...more is better.;)

Lack of knowlege is NOT better than understanding.
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+1

I want to share my little experience as a pro musician if you don't mind.

I started bass late at 17 years old without doing music for few years before that. Then I got the Call for playing bass for the rest of my life and I knew it.

After few years of practicing and gigging I became one of the first call in my town for studio work,live shows with reading and tv shows at 21. Everything was great but I knew my knowledge about harmony was weak even if I was doing jazz gigs as well. So I dropped my " first call career" in town at 23 and moved to LA for studying harmony with the great Dick Grove. I never regret it. I became a much better musician and at the same a better bassist even if I didn't take any bass lessons over there.

Learning harmony will help any bassist to play the right notes every time which is an important role we have to fill.


Sly
 
#526
I guess it all boils down to the fact that chord tones and scales go hand in hand. I was self-taught for the first five years of my playing and practised scales to the point where i had good speed and accuracy(at least i thought i did) but i had no musicality because i didn't know how it all worked in a musical sense. Maybe this whole debate is more to do with understanding the knowledge because without the understanding, scales just become another finger exercise. Forgive me if i've stated the obvious, it's just easy for a young player to get trapped in the rut of daily a drill routine where they're developing a certain amount of technique but not improving as musicians. I've probably repeated a lot that's already been said here but within the context of music education(which is point of the thread) it's all about teaching students to understand the purpose of scales.
 
#527
slybass3000 said:
+1

I want to share my little experience as a pro musician if you don't mind.

I started bass late at 17 years old without doing music for few years before that. Then I got the Call for playing bass for the rest of my life and I knew it.

After few years of practicing and gigging I became one of the first call in my town for studio work,live shows with reading and tv shows at 21. Everything was great but I knew my knowledge about harmony was weak even if I was doing jazz gigs as well. So I dropped my " first call career" in town at 23 and moved to LA for studying harmony with the great Dick Grove. I never regret it. I became a much better musician and at the same a better bassist even if I didn't take any bass lessons over there.

Learning harmony will help any bassist to play the right notes every time which is an important role we have to fill.


Sly
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Dick Grove was a great school. When you studied harmony, there it was, chords, upper extensions, line writing, part-writing (if you did the arranging classes). So you were getting a mega-dose of chord tones-whether they were on your bass or not they were in your ears and mind. At that point, you can practice scales, jazz scales, modes, and whatever and they all work better because you are thinking of harmony first. ;)
I got curious, checked your profile and see you're in Montreal-the home of one of my favorite bassists, Alain Caron, and one of my favorite bands, UZEB. I did a Canadian tour in the early 80s and they were using Live at Bracknell for our walk in music at every Cafe Campus venue (I was with vibraphonist Jerry Tachoir on that tour). On the last day I was in Quebec City I found a record shop hours before leaving and bought it. It was a game changer for me back here in the States :)
 
#528
As an intellectual exercize playing through chord changes using only chord tones is far harder than thinking in scales, particularly since a given tune may stay in key. Being able to play through changes using only chord tones gives you a very strong map of what notes to lead to as you gain more knowledge of music and the fret board.

I've been doing the chord tone exercizes through changes, staying on one string, groups of two strings and in position. Quite a challenge, and I thought I knew the fretboard really well.
 
#529
Roy Vogt said:
Dick Grove was a great school. When you studied harmony, there it was, chords, upper extensions, line writing, part-writing (if you did the arranging classes). So you were getting a mega-dose of chord tones-whether they were on your bass or not they were in your ears and mind. At that point, you can practice scales, jazz scales, modes, and whatever and they all work better because you are thinking of harmony first. ;)
I got curious, checked your profile and see you're in Montreal-the home of one of my favorite bassists, Alain Caron, and one of my favorite bands, UZEB. I did a Canadian tour in the early 80s and they were using Live at Bracknell for our walk in music at every Cafe Campus venue (I was with vibraphonist Jerry Tachoir on that tour). On the last day I was in Quebec City and found a record shop hours before leaving and bought it. It was a game changer for me back here in the States :)
Click to expand...

+1 to Alain Caron. I just recently discovered him, and have been absolutely blown away!
 
#530
Roy Vogt said:
Dick Grove was a great school. When you studied harmony, there it was, chords, upper extensions, line writing, part-writing (if you did the arranging classes). So you were getting a mega-dose of chord tones-whether they were on your bass or not they were in your ears and mind. At that point, you can practice scales, jazz scales, modes, and whatever and they all work better because you are thinking of harmony first. ;)
I got curious, checked your profile and see you're in Montreal-the home of one of my favorite bassists, Alain Caron, and one of my favorite bands, UZEB. I did a Canadian tour in the early 80s and they were using Live at Bracknell for our walk in music at every Cafe Campus venue (I was with vibraphonist Jerry Tachoir on that tour). On the last day I was in Quebec City and found a record shop hours before leaving and bought it. It was a game changer for me back here in the States :)
Click to expand...

Alain is an amazing player and a great guy. We actually did bass battles on tv few times :bassist:

He comes judge my students at school. Actually he is coming next week for that. So even with his busy schedule, he takes the time to do this. I totally appreciate that.

BTW Dick Grove was a genius about music education. I've learned so much from him. I truly miss him,

Sly
 
#531
slybass3000 said:
After reading this it seems obvious that the whole JB teaching concept is based mostly on bass soloing which a very,very,very small role that a bass player will have to fill. I really don't deny the concept of soloing at all but I believe a bass player has to know how to be a good bass player first and be able to understand his/her role as a time keeper in a band and play the right notes in his/her basslines. And for me this should come first with the help of exercices with a click ( an essential tool for bassist) and the scales and the function of them. A good knowledge of harmony is very important for a bass player.

Sly
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I'm in Rome but I jumped on-line to see what was happening here. This comment caught my attention.

Bass soloing is an art choice. But studying melodic, harmonic and rhythmical exercises are academic principles. It doesnàt matter what you use them for. They are perfect and they will teach you music on your instrument.

Some still confuse learning with playing. What is interesting to me is that this dificulty is turning out to equal the same said many times that academics and art are different. Learning pertains to dealing with facts, and perfect facts at that! Practicing perfect chord tone exercises and equating them directly to soloing is like practicing grammar and equating it directly with book writing. The truth is, the more grammar you learn, the more choices you have in using it.
 
#532
synaesthesia said:
I don't like to do solos on bass, .
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I just took this little piece because it says a lot. My answer to you and to everybody is this: if you donàt like to solo, then you should never solo as an artist. Just remember that if you remove yourself from a certain style of music, you lose the opportunity to add this principle to your artful life. What one prefers and dedicates their lives to often comes AFTER they have apprenticed onto many different playing situations sometimes for a long time. Rarely does anybody decide that they only want one thing to do in music. Yo Yo Ma and Jaco Pastorius started off in only one style and then branched out into other things as they kept growing in music. One ENDS UP embracing their preferred stlye of music. But, as an example, to end up becoming a baker of cakes only, one has to first be a baker of bagels to know that they really didnàt want to bake bagels in the first place.

The second thing is that solo is maybe the best academic principle there is, because nobody can do it well unless they know something about bass and music. You can't fake your way through solos the way that some guys fake their way thinking that they are good bass players because they have learned a few riffs or licks. Soloing exposes us all! It is the naked truth right in our face about what you really can or cannot do as a bass player, or what you really know or do not know, about music. Frankly this much truth is too much for some bass players. But, if you have an academic interest, then by all means, practice soloing because you probably won't like what you first hear. Good! Now you are on the road toward musical improvement because who can tolerate hearing lousy bass playing and prefer to stay that way.
 
#535
JeffBerlin said:
I'm in Rome but I jumped on-line to see what was happening here. This comment caught my attention.

Bass soloing is an art choice. But studying melodic, harmonic and rhythmical exercises are academic principles. It doesnàt matter what you use them for. They are perfect and they will teach you music on your instrument.

Some still confuse learning with playing. What is interesting to me is that this dificulty is turning out to equal the same said many times that academics and art are different. Learning pertains to dealing with facts, and perfect facts at that! Practicing perfect chord tone exercises and equating them directly to soloing is like practicing grammar and equating it directly with book writing. The truth is, the more grammar you learn, the more choices you have in using it.
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Thanks for dropping by.

I know what you you are saying about knowledge been essential for us bass players. I'm into it big time.
It's just in context of the reply from someone else I saw it more in aiming to solo application then anything else.

Sly
 
#540
slybass3000 said:
Alain is an amazing player and a great guy. We actually did bass battles on tv few times :bassist:

He comes judge my students at school. Actually he is coming next week for that. So even with his busy schedule, he takes the time to do this. I totally appreciate that.

BTW Dick Grove was a genius about music education. I've learned so much from him. I truly miss him,

Sly
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Give him my best regards. We met a decade ago at least at a Nashville NAMM when we were both Eden endorsers and playing at their booth. I also made it a point to contact him whenever I was in Montreal with Engelbert doing a concert. That's great that he helps your students learn. +1 :)
 
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