Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[Lonnybass]

Jeff-

Thanks again as usual for kicking my a$$ and motivating me to sit down and work on my reading again. Gotta get to it!!!

Lonnybass

 

[JeffBerlin]

There are many methods to teach, but the skill sets that need to be learned are remarkably consistent.

Exactly. The methods may be varied; I could read Spanish to you and I can sing it to you. But, the words are the same and the methods to teach the words are pretty consistent. Some people make a problem by overcomplicating learning. Because most people learn the same ways with pretty even results, why fix the wheel when it works.

 

[JeffBerlin]

That's a GREAT attitude that will serve you well and ensure that you learn a lot from Jeff. One of the real keys to learning is that the student must trust the teacher.

I don't necessarily see the possibility for only one "truth" however. Often there are many ways to get to a given destination. Jeff's way is one of them.

Your last comment immediately made me think, and the very first thought that came into my head was that many people believe in God, but take many different roads to get to Him. They also fight like hell because of their beliefs and millions have died in his name. If there are many roads to God, wouldn't one make things easier for people? It's still God! I know that this won't happen, but it is just a thought about how many methods of worship haven't ended up well for a lot of people who are doing the praying.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Although tongue in cheek, this is a great point! In cooking there are tried an true methods to doing certain things-the oven temperature needs to be exact, you have to knead the dough this many times, etc. Why is that we feel music is different?

Exactly! And this philosophy of knowing the facts, the details, worked out for me perfectly. We had 10 guests over to the house. I cooked everything, veggies, stuffing, sweet and mashed potatoes, gravy from the turkey drippings, and, of course, the turkey itself. I'm no gourmet cook, but, I knew going in that I had to know a few irrefutable facts related to each dish to make them come out well. And they did! I would put my turkey next to anybody else's. I brined the night before (another few facts about preparing the brine). This made the turkey juicy and flavorful. I learned how to cook it, how long to tent it, and when to remove it. IT WAS PERFECT and it was the best tasting turkey my guests and Vicky and I ever had. Really! Plus, the stuffing was to die, and the gravy was unbelievable, made from scratch. It wasn't hard, but I did a lot of research before Thanksgiving Day arrived. Trust me; in music, in cooking, in anything, the facts must precede the art because you can't have art until you know how to manipulate the facts.

 

[4001]

Trust me; in music, in cooking, in anything, the facts must precede the art because you can't have art until you know how to manipulate the facts.

Right.

I usually like to learn the recipe before I improvise on it.

 

[the_hook]

Hi Jeff, nice to have someone of your calibre here.

I'm pretty new to bass, learning what I can on my own. I finally have some time this fall/winter to get some valuable instruction to propel my bass and theory learning forward.

I'm a realistic, disciplined person, so I know there's a big road ahead of me physically and mentally to learn everything I can and implement it successfully with whatever time I have to learn bass.

But my biggest road block has been finding a local, competent teacher. I've interviewed 3 guys so far, and I get phrases from "it's all down to whatever you want to learn" to one guy wants to start with chords, another with intervals, etc.

I'm curious; over your years of teaching, what approaches did find worked best for a person who is fairly new to the bass and music, that they need to learn certain things in a specific order, so that they can understand and move successfully to the next level? There's no use in teaching them X at this point, if they won't be using it until level 5, or if show them X it'll just confuse what they know now, etc.

I would think that a new student with little bass and theory background would need specific building blocks that make sense, to get to the bigger picture.

From an earlier post about piano; I bought a used electric piano some months back, understanding that it can be a great tool for learning. I'm using it now to learn as I find the different layout of the keyboard makes sense visually, and then I transpose what I learn on the keys to the bass.

I've also written colour Excel sheet patterns of the fretboard, finger patterns for each scale, etc. I tend to learn fast visually, words alone tend to mess things up sometimes.

 

[jarrhead]

Hi Jeff, nice to have someone of your calibre here.

I'm pretty new to bass, learning what I can on my own. I finally have some time this fall/winter to get some valuable instruction to propel my bass and theory learning forward.

I'm a realistic, disciplined person, so I know there's a big road ahead of me physically and mentally to learn everything I can and implement it successfully with whatever time I have to learn bass.

But my biggest road block has been finding a local, competent teacher. I've interviewed 3 guys so far, and I get phrases from "it's all down to whatever you want to learn" to one guy wants to start with chords, another with intervals, etc.

I'm curious; over your years of teaching, what approaches did find worked best for a person who is fairly new to the bass and music, that they need to learn certain things in a specific order, so that they can understand and move successfully to the next level? There's no use in teaching them X at this point, if they won't be using it until level 5, or if show them X it'll just confuse what they know now, etc.

I would think that a new student with little bass and theory background would need specific building blocks that make sense, to get to the bigger picture.

From an earlier post about piano; I bought a used electric piano some months back, understanding that it can be a great tool for learning. I'm using it now to learn as I find the different layout of the keyboard makes sense visually, and then I transpose what I learn on the keys to the bass.

I've also written colour Excel sheet patterns of the fretboard, finger patterns for each scale, etc. I tend to learn fast visually, words alone tend to mess things up sometimes.

Hey. Not Jeff, but maybe I can help.

I learned chords first. (1st 3rd 5th.) My teacher showed me HOW these chords were constructed. He had me trying to memorize the notes across the fretboard, and the SHAPES of scales/chords.

This was simply amazing. I was able to play roots to any song a band could put out. No leading yet.

I think the shapes of scales/chords and the notes across the fretboard should be learned first!


Shapes, shapes, shapes.

 

[fdeck]

Although tongue in cheek, this is a great point! In cooking there are tried an true methods to doing certain things-the oven temperature needs to be exact, you have to knead the dough this many times, etc. Why is that we feel music is different?

That is why I advocate learning upright bass. The challenges presented by the physical size and difficulty of the instrument absolutely require solid instruction, or you are on a oneway path to bad intonation and tendentitus. Maybe, the instrument will humble its students to actually listen to their teachers.

Upright bass? Do you mean tuned in fourths or fifths? Which of the many different fingering systems do you recommend? French or German bow?

As for cooking, very few things need to be exact. I bake a lot of my own bread. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to make basic bread. I've changed my own basic recipe several times. Bread is quite forgiving of wide variations in ingredients, technique, and baking conditions. If you think about it, anything that humans survived on before roughly 1900 is tolerant of such variations. The first cookbook to use standardized measuring spoons and cups was published in 1896.

Exact temperature? Tell that to someone who is cooking in a wood fired oven.

 

[4001]

I cooked everything, veggies, stuffing, sweet and mashed potatoes, gravy from the turkey drippings, and, of course, the turkey itself. I brined the night before. This made the turkey juicy and flavorful. IT WAS PERFECT and it was the best tasting turkey my guests and Vicky and I ever had. Really! Plus, the stuffing was to die, and the gravy was unbelievable, made from scratch.

What about dessert??

Pumpkin pie?
Chocolate creme pie?
Apple pie?
Ice cream?
Cookies?
Coffee?
Tea?

 

[jarrhead]

What about dessert??

Pumpkin pie?
Chocolate creme pie?
Apple pie?
Ice cream?
Cookies?
Coffee?
Tea?

My thanksgiving is tonight.

We have Chocolate Pudding Pie!
Oh, with some Coo Hwip

 

[JeffBerlin]

Upright bass? Do you mean tuned in fourths or fifths? Which of the many different fingering systems do you recommend? French or German bow?

As for cooking, very few things need to be exact. I bake a lot of my own bread. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to make basic bread. I've changed my own basic recipe several times. Bread is quite forgiving of wide variations in ingredients, technique, and baking conditions. If you think about it, anything that humans survived on before roughly 1900 is tolerant of such variations. The first cookbook to use standardized measuring spoons and cups was published in 1896.

Exact temperature? Tell that to someone who is cooking in a wood fired oven.

Whatever the varieties, you can only cook with heat.

 

[engedi1]

Upright bass? Do you mean tuned in fourths or fifths? Which of the many different fingering systems do you recommend? French or German bow?

As for cooking, very few things need to be exact. I bake a lot of my own bread. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to make basic bread. I've changed my own basic recipe several times. Bread is quite forgiving of wide variations in ingredients, technique, and baking conditions. If you think about it, anything that humans survived on before roughly 1900 is tolerant of such variations. The first cookbook to use standardized measuring spoons and cups was published in 1896.

Exact temperature? Tell that to someone who is cooking in a wood fired oven.

Sorry for a not fully developed analogy. I am just trying to expand on Jeff's point that there actually is a correct way to do some things. For example, if you grip your bow incorrectly, whether it be German or French, you will never master using the bow. The correct ways to grip the bow are well documented and have a tradition going back hundreds of years.
Poor wrist position in the left hand will certainly lead you to carpal tunnel syndrome or other problems.
Refusing to learn to read music, will certainly cripple your ability to grow as a musician.
Not turning the oven on, will not produce good bread.
I am very sorry, I thought I was making a really obvious point and that readers understood there will always be variation within any tradition, but that nevertheless, there are some absolutes in the world.

 

[fdeck]

Whatever the varieties, you can only cook with heat.

That's true, so long as the definition of "cooking" doesn't evolve.

I remember my first "science" lesson in first grade. The teacher said: "Energy is the ability to do work." But she never told us, and probably didn't know herself, what either energy or work are. A great deal of grade school "science" education consisted merely of defining terms with other terms. It trivialized science and conveyed no useful understanding of real science.

I hope that there are better examples of universal truths in the teaching of music, then merely the definitions of terms.

 

[fdeck]

I am very sorry, I thought I was making a really obvious point and that readers understood there will always be variation within any tradition, but that nevertheless, there are some absolutes in the world.

I know what you are saying. Obviously, any body of knowledge includes some absolutes and some things that are relative, because those are the only two choices. The problem is that the search for absolutes within a discipline could produce a list that is either so obvious or general as to trivialize the subject matter.

Also, we should always be appropriately humble about absolutes. They can be overturned.

 

[engedi1]

I know what you are saying. Obviously, any body of knowledge includes some absolutes and some things that are relative, because those are the only two choices. The problem is that the search for absolutes within a discipline could produce a list that is either so obvious or general as to trivialize the subject matter.

Also, we should always be appropriately humble about absolutes. They can be overturned.

I always agree with maintaining a teachable attitude, and a humble one, so that when change comes, one can embrace it. For example, my teacher, who himself certainly learned by Simandl, didn't really teach Simandl, but preferred to teach Rabbath. You are right, too much absolutism leads to an unyeilding stubborness that inhibits growth.

Nevertheless, a C Major scale is a C Major scale. I am mostly talking about learning the fundamentals, what I think Jeff means by learning the "facts" of music.

Relativism is most appropriate for the advanced learner who has mastered the fundamentals. Certainly you didn't create your own bread recipes at the beginning, but you wanted to learn the "correct" way to knead, and the " best" temperature for the oven. Then, when the fundy's where learned, you wanted to venture out..
Even the immortal John Coltrane played much more basic solos (from a harmonic standpoint) at the beginning of his careers, VS the "out" stuff he played at the end.
John Cage learned Beethoven and Mozart first.
I guess that is all I am saying, is that you will be best prepared to embrace the new things and the changes coming down the pike, if you have first absorbed the depth of the tradition.

I know that you yourself are a master of electronics and create your own gear (at which I stand in complete awe!). If you had never learned how to soder "correctly, at least by some teacher's definition," would any of your gear work?

 

[JeffBerlin]

That's true, so long as the definition of "cooking" doesn't evolve.

I remember my first "science" lesson in first grade. The teacher said: "Energy is the ability to do work." But she never told us, and probably didn't know herself, what either energy or work are. A great deal of grade school "science" education consisted merely of defining terms with other terms. It trivialized science and conveyed no useful understanding of real science.

I hope that there are better examples of universal truths in the teaching of music, then merely the definitions of terms.

But, terms, or what are defined as terms are what one learns. In medicine, the liver is This Thing, and it operates This Way. These are the known treatments for this organ. Terms, definitions, and facts are what anybody learns in order to learn well. It allows you to function from knowledge and facts.

A DbminMaj7 chord tone arpeggio simply IS! Sine many here can't play it cleanly going up and down the neck, they should use the idea about how to learn this little piece of music and apply it to practically every other element of music that they look at. As I mentioned in the last thread that got shut down, too many people over-analyze simple learning principles and complicate something that is easy and can be learned directed, with little problem. In fact, if one has a problem learning, please tell me what they are so that I might be able to address them. Thanks!

 

[JeffBerlin]

I know what you are saying. Obviously, any body of knowledge includes some absolutes and some things that are relative, because those are the only two choices. The problem is that the search for absolutes within a discipline could produce a list that is either so obvious or general as to trivialize the subject matter.

Also, we should always be appropriately humble about absolutes. They can be overturned.

If they can be overturned then they should be. But how does one overturn, say, a minor third. One can't and neither can they over-turn practically every other established bit of musical fact. If it can't be done, then why try to overturn them. Just learn musical facts and then see what they can do in your musical life.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I always agree with maintaining a teachable attitude, and a humble one, so that when change comes, one can embrace it. For example, my teacher, who himself certainly learned by Simandl, didn't really teach Simandl, but preferred to teach Rabbath. You are right, too much absolutism leads to an unyeilding stubborness that inhibits growth.

Nevertheless, a C Major scale is a C Major scale. I am mostly talking about learning the fundamentals, what I think Jeff means by learning the "facts" of music.

Relativism is most appropriate for the advanced learner who has mastered the fundamentals. Certainly you didn't create your own bread recipes at the beginning, but you wanted to learn the "correct" way to knead, and the " best" temperature for the oven. Then, when the fundy's where learned, you wanted to venture out..
Even the immortal John Coltrane played much more basic solos (from a harmonic standpoint) at the beginning of his careers, VS the "out" stuff he played at the end.
John Cage learned Beethoven and Mozart first.
I guess that is all I am saying, is that you will be best prepared to embrace the new things and the changes coming down the pike, if you have first absorbed the depth of the tradition.

I know that you yourself are a master of electronics and create your own gear (at which I stand in complete awe!). If you had never learned how to soder "correctly, at least by some teacher's definition," would any of your gear work?

No they wouldn't. I didn't know that he is a master of electrics and builds his own gear. The truth is, his, and in fact, everyone's gear is built on the exact same standards. Only the artist upgrades the established elements, even in electronics.

 

[Dark Horse]

Your last comment immediately made me think, and the very first thought that came into my head was that many people believe in God, but take many different roads to get to Him. They also fight like hell because of their beliefs and millions have died in his name. If there are many roads to God, wouldn't one make things easier for people? It's still God! I know that this won't happen, but it is just a thought about how many methods of worship haven't ended up well for a lot of people who are doing the praying.

Interesting way to look at it.

It is very "close to home" for me.

My brother is a preacher. Me ? Well, I believe in God, but I have my own beliefs about worship.

My brother and I get along great. Despite the fact that our beliefs are not 100% identical, we respect each others opinions and beliefs. Much like you should respect other peoples beliefs on teaching, and they should respect yours. He doesn't say "It's my way or the highway" to me, nor do I say that to him.

This thread has started out on a "good foot" so to speak. I think it is good that there is some respect coming "to" and "from" the participants here. Certainly your methods work, I don't doubt that. Do they work for EVERYONE ? Well, maybe, maybe not - some are able to grasp concepts better than others. But as I mentioned to the other poster, I think he has a fantastic attitude going into your classes, and that will help him get the most out of the experience.

I hope you had a GREAT Thanksgiving Jeff. And have a great weekend as well.

 

[Munjibunga]

Hi Jeff. I was fortunate enough to grow up in an era when fundamentals were taught in every subject, including music. I think some of the pedagogies used today get ahead of themselves by trying to get students to solve problems "creatively" without first instilling the basic tools necessary to do so. In music, that means keys, scales, modes, reading and the whole wad. Although we weren't well-off enough to get private lessons for me (I played trumpet, then tuba), my teachers taught music theory in addition to the performance aspect of music. While I am by no means a virtuoso on any instrument, my understanding of music fundamentals helps me communicate ideas to my bandmates more effectively.

I've played bass guitar (5-string, sorry) for 30 years off-and-on. My problem now in later life is that I play bass "well enough" for what I do, but could really use some advancement of my technique. I'm on the verge of retirement from my day job, so I will have time to either get lessons or invest in some instructional videos. Any suggestions?

By the way, I had the opportunity to see Michael Manring perform in a very close environment last week. I'd say his style is about as different from yours as can be. He seems to push beyond limits that others may perceive for the bass guitar. Any comments on what he does?

I should mention I saw you playing with Jonas Hellborg at the DR Strings booth at NAMM a couple years ago. I sure would like to have a tenth of your technique. I know. Practice, practice, practice.