Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff,
Steve Smith seems to be doing a lot of recordings with various trios (GHS, Vital Tech Tones, etc.). How about one with you and Pat Metheny?
Also, any chance of a (the originals, BTW) Players reunion? That's still one of my fave CDs.

(I know, I know. These aren't "music education" questions. Sorry.)

I used to play with both Pat Metheny and Steve Smith when we were all at Berklee in the mid 1970's. Pat was my ensemble teacher, already showing the brilliance that he became famous for. Plus, we used to jam a lot. He was a terrific guy back then, as Steve Smith was. Steve and I used to play all the time and hang. Those were great days, those young days of musical investigation. Everyone was playing, hanging, writing music, studying together.

 

[stratovani]

Hello, Jeff! This is a really informative thread, and I've enjoyed every minute of reading. My question is this: I've got ADHD (Attention Deficit - Hyperactivity Disorder), which makes learning difficult at times since I tend to lose interest fairly quickly. I find sitting down and practicing scales and modes to a metronome excruciating after a couple of minutes, whereas if I attempt to learn and play a variety of songs at a time I seem to do much better, hence my personal motto: I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music. Does your methodology allow for students like myself, and if so then how do you compensate for it?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hello, Jeff! This is a really informative thread, and I've enjoyed every minute of reading. My question is this: I've got ADHD (Attention Deficit - Hyperactivity Disorder), which makes learning difficult at times since I tend to lose interest fairly quickly. I find sitting down and practicing scales and modes to a metronome excruciating after a couple of minutes, whereas if I attempt to learn and play a variety of songs at a time I seem to do much better, hence my personal motto: I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music. Does your methodology allow for students like myself, and if so then how do you compensate for it?

I don't have ADHD and I, too, find practicing scales with a metronome excruciating. Don't practice scales with a metronome. There is no reason under the sun to practice scales with a metronome. This is one of the greatest myths ever perpetuated in the teaching world. It simply makes no sense whatsoever and you will not, 100% guaranteed, improve anything in your playing this way. In fact, there is really no reason to practice with a metronome. You already have a good time sense. You just don't know enough about music to represent it well. This is everybody's story; they try to perform, not learn.

My first suggestion is to put away your metronome and stop practicing scales. I would suggest that you find a teacher who can teach you jazz academia for its own sake, not to become a jazzer. Learn the facts little by little. Read new music, just not everyday. Take a piece of music and practice it and fix each and every reading or playing error the moment that you recognize them. Then repeat the piece until you feel comfortable with it, NOT UNTIL YOU NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE WITH IT. Everybody makes mistakes and you are supposed to be learning, not performing.

Finally, now that you know that you have ADHD, take little breaks when your mind wanders and then come back to it when you've found your "center" again.

 

[AltGrendel]

Jeff:

For a beginning reader when working on reading a new piece, do you recommend "splitting" note pitch from the note duration? I.E A, C# E, then sixteenth, eighth, sixteenth.

If not, what approach would you recommend.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Hello, Jeff! This is a really informative thread, and I've enjoyed every minute of reading. My question is this: I've got ADHD (Attention Deficit - Hyperactivity Disorder), which makes learning difficult at times since I tend to lose interest fairly quickly. I find sitting down and practicing scales and modes to a metronome excruciating after a couple of minutes, whereas if I attempt to learn and play a variety of songs at a time I seem to do much better, hence my personal motto: I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music. Does your methodology allow for students like myself, and if so then how do you compensate for it?

there is a guy on youtube that walks thru the changes to cherokee in all 12 keys as a warm up.....takes about 12 minutes.... something like that could hold your interest longer?

 

[slybass3000]

I don't have ADHD and I, too, find practicing scales with a metronome excruciating. Don't practice scales with a metronome. There is no reason under the sun to practice scales with a metronome. This is one of the greatest myths ever perpetuated in the teaching world. It simply makes no sense whatsoever and you will not, 100% guaranteed, improve anything in your playing this way. In fact, there is really no reason to practice with a metronome. You already have a good time sense. You just don't know enough about music to represent it well. This is everybody's story; they try to perform, not learn.

My first suggestion is to put away your metronome and stop practicing scales. I would suggest that you find a teacher who can teach you jazz academia for its own sake, not to become a jazzer. Learn the facts little by little. Read new music, just not everyday. Take a piece of music and practice it and fix each and every reading or playing error the moment that you recognize them. Then repeat the piece until you feel comfortable with it, NOT UNTIL YOU NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE WITH IT. Everybody makes mistakes and you are supposed to be learning, not performing.

Finally, now that you know that you have ADHD, take little breaks when your mind wanders and then come back to it when you've found your "center" again.

Hi Jeff,

I really try to understand your statements but I don't get it.

I still don't get it why you are still reluctant towards scales and metronome. It's like asking an architect to build something without any form of measurement tool. Which is a nonsense.

A metronome is the ultimate tool for a musician to improve their accuracy in their playing, time, sense of listening etc..

A metronome will make you aware of a problem in some shift positions when dragging or rushing between them. Will make you aware of certain rhythms that you have problems with. Will measure your improvement in speed and endurance too.

As a pro bassist for 30 years,it is my job to make something liveless like a click to make it grooves. I can make a click grooves,it is my job on a daily basis. And the best way to do that is to listen to a click and practice with it while listening to it. There are a bunch of ways to practice with it and it is a great tool that should not be put in the closet. The same with scales.

I know I can't win this arguement with you because your words are heavier then mine in such a forum but be conscious about their impact on some folks. I think you're aiming them in the wrong direction IMHO by saying such things.


Best regards,

Sly

 

[NickyBass]

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. It's a great read. Generally, I agree with you on a lot of aspects.

It seems that alot of discussion is about practising. I'd like to hear your thoughts on application. Would you say that the goal of practising is to internalize something so well that you don't have to 'think' about it when on the bandstand? Or do you have a different approach?

Thanks for any info.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff:

For a beginning reader when working on reading a new piece, do you recommend "splitting" note pitch from the note duration? I.E A, C# E, then sixteenth, eighth, sixteenth.

If not, what approach would you recommend.

Reading solves all the questions about learning notes because it is automatically built into the reading/interpretation process. The methods to learn already exist and they are perfect, 100% reliable. I don't believe in inventing solutions to learning difficulties when the methods that guarantee musical growth already exist. Did I answer your question?

 

[JeffBerlin]

there is a guy on youtube that walks thru the changes to cherokee in all 12 keys as a warm up.....takes about 12 minutes.... something like that could hold your interest longer?

Try choosing a tune a little bit slower for warm-ups. Solar or Autumn Leaves would be fine. But, this guy has the right idea because he is playing music to warm up with, not finger-type lessons that some use.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff,

I really try to understand your statements but I don't get it.

I still don't get it why you are still reluctant towards scales and metronome. It's like asking an architect to build something without any form of measurement tool. Which is a nonsense.

A metronome is the ultimate tool for a musician to improve their accuracy in their playing, time, sense of listening etc..

A metronome will make you aware of a problem in some shift positions when dragging or rushing between them. Will make you aware of certain rhythms that you have problems with. Will measure your improvement in speed and endurance too.

As a pro bassist for 30 years,it is my job to make something liveless like a click to make it grooves. I can make a click grooves,it is my job on a daily basis. And the best way to do that is to listen to a click and practice with it while listening to it. There are a bunch of ways to practice with it and it is a great tool that should not be put in the closet. The same with scales.

I know I can't win this arguement with you because your words are heavier then mine in such a forum but be conscious about their impact on some folks. I think you're aiming them in the wrong direction IMHO by saying such things.


Best regards,

Sly

Here is a question about metronomes. Name me something that is learned "in time". I will bet that you can't do it. If you can't do this with anything in the world, then why is music exempt from the same learning principles that EVERYTHING else is connected to?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. It's a great read. Generally, I agree with you on a lot of aspects.

It seems that alot of discussion is about practising. I'd like to hear your thoughts on application. Would you say that the goal of practising is to internalize something so well that you don't have to 'think' about it when on the bandstand? Or do you have a different approach?

Thanks for any info.

Learning is to enlighten. It isn't for application. Example: many people still believe in practicing scales and who still practice for performance purposes. With these thoughts in mind, how can one apply to a C scale to a gig. There isn't a single song that I can think of that is represented by a C scale, since songs are generally moving harmony. Besides, a C scale isn't a rhythmical principle. Except for Doe- A Deer, A Female Deer, I can't think of any song to apply a C scale to. The purpose of these devices is to learn for its own sake. It is not for performance. This comes later. Learning is to develop the language of the art that you embrace and learning it on the instrument allows you to use this device to represent only, and exactly, what you tell it to do. Learning music isn't for the bandstand. This is something that many guys still don't remember. The "bandstand" is the result, the reward for having learned well. Many players really don't sound that good because they prepare for a career, not for musical improvement which guarantees a career if you've learned well. Most haven't, which is why they have been playing the same types of music with the same types of guys for years. One cannot move ahead unless one learns how to do this.

 

[NickyBass]

Thanks for the reply, Jeff. That's alot to think about.

 

[AltGrendel]

Reading solves all the questions about learning notes because it is automatically built into the reading/interpretation process. The methods to learn already exist and they are perfect, 100% reliable. I don't believe in inventing solutions to learning difficulties when the methods that guarantee musical growth already exist. Did I answer your question?

Sure, I'm taking the answer as a "just do it" approach, don't over analyse it. Take your time and read the notes.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thanks for the reply, Jeff. That's alot to think about.

It is because it goes in the face of what you have heard, principles that most people believe, I should say, falsely believe. Nobody is stupid here. They have been misled, not by bad-intentioned people, but by people who don't know their subject matter. If one looks honestly at this era of music education, there are players who teach but who don't know about music. They have to teach SOMETHING and so some rather odd principles are taught. Further, on paper, a lot of the discussion makes sense; performance and the in-time element of it seems to line up with the steady uncompromizing click of a metronome for example. But, what has been left out for consideration is that music has never been, is not, and never will be, an unmoving art-form as metronomes insist that you play like. Click tracks aside (rare events only available for players who are rehearsed and who can already play) music moves, breathes, shifts, and changes. The trick is to do it together and without too much movement. Every great play in the world can do this with no discussion, with no regard. It is already learned and known and does not require even a hint of review.

Regarding your having a lot to think about, good! Just realize that the reason that learning music correctly is such a foreign concept to so many players, is because few people about these good ways to learn, few people offers good exercises, and very very few guys on Talkbass (for example) or other places are interested in musical things. Music is too hard for most guys. Pity, because a good school or teacher could change your life in 6 to 12 months.

 

[slybass3000]

Here is a question about metronomes. Name me something that is learned "in time". I will bet that you can't do it. If you can't do this with anything in the world, then why is music exempt from the same learning principles that EVERYTHING else is connected to?

My job is to sight-read new music (easy or tricky) almost everyday with a click or sequence or loops. My musical director expect me to be perfect at first sight. Which I do most of the time ! This comes in partie from practicing scales (all of them) with a metronome for years.

Sly

 

[JeffBerlin]

Sure, I'm taking the answer as a "just do it" approach, don't over analyse it. Take your time and read the notes.

...Just the way that you learned everything else in your life. Good! This concept is beginning to make sense. Here is something to add to it. Guys who do push-ups and then go to the mirror to look for results always go away dissapointed. The benefits of these exercises never show up, not until later. It is the same with music. Guys practice, and still make mistakes and get mad because they do. Making mistakes even after learning your music is normal. EVERYBODY makes mistakes even after hard practice. And, like those push-up exercises, you won't see the result of your practicing, not for a while. So you had better enjoy the practicing experience because the rewards are there, but just not to be seen on your timetable, maybe not for a while.

 

[JeffBerlin]

My job is to sight-read new music (easy or tricky) almost everyday with a click or sequence or loops. My musical director expect me to be perfect at first sight. Which I do most of the time ! This comes in partie from practicing scales (all of them) with a metronome for years.

Sly

What gig are you doing where you have to sight read new music each day?

 

[Billnc]

Jeff, I think most people miss the point that what one can sight read, on the spot to a click track is a few steps below what they may be working on that they cannot yet read up to tempo. You might have a whole list of songs you've never seen before that you can play first time through, yet be working on more difficult tunes that require you to play slowly and out of time.

 

[slybass3000]

What gig are you doing where you have to sight read new music each day?

Live TV shows most of the time. Right now the show I'm doing has at least 45 mns of music in an hour show. I do awards shows and stuff like that. Big productions.

I don't want to argue with you on that because I think we obviously have different requirements in our own jobs. But to me I think it is good to make our students aware of the fact they might have to do this one day and prepare them to that is a good thing. It is only putting a new parameter or challenge in the practicing routine imo.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me,

Sly

 

[JeffBerlin]

Live TV shows most of the time. Right now the show I'm doing has at least 45 mns of music in an hour show. I do awards shows and stuff like that. Big productions.

I don't want to argue with you on that because I think we obviously have different requirements in our own jobs. But to me I think it is good to make our students aware of the fact they might have to do this one day and prepare them to that is a good thing. It is only putting a new parameter or challenge in the practicing routine imo.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me,

Sly

Naaah. No argument here. But your answers does raise a couple of questions that maybe you can answer. Can you explain to me how you learned to read the rhythms that go with sight-reading music when the scales that you practiced have none? Also, how did you learn to interpret different time signatures when scales don't include them either? Thanks.