Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[NoobOnRoad]

Your musical comments about E2 or E4 don't register with me. Also your scale letters don't work E,F,G,A,B,Bb,C, if this is a scale at all.

My guess is that your teacher may not be giving you what you need which is organized musical instruction. But I don't know this for sure and I don't know how to check him. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to help you from this letter. Can you get a guy who speaks English and let him write your thoughts to me?

What I was saying is that I practice these scales(E,F,G,A,B,Bb,C) in Minor and major on 2 octaves.

And that I also does the arpeggios of 7, min7, maj7,min7b5 and diminished.

I was asking you if i should practice these arpeggios and scales starting downward instead of going upward if that make sense.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Please don't make comment's like that on my teacher, he does know what he does, but he just underestimate me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Commreman]

The Rochet books can get super hard. The Ernest Clarke is a good beginner book. And the Chord Studies for Trombome is an advanced etude and approach note to chord tone book, maybe the best that I ever found. But, you have to know how to read and play a little bit to get any value from it.

thanks Jeff! I have been playing over 30 years, (not near to your level!) and I can read pretty well. I'll check them out!

 

[bench]

Hey Jeff, any more solo bass stuff? 'Clinton Country' is, frankly, amazing. I play it for people and they insist there must be overdubs, but I don't think so, am I right?

show´em this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNmU_m2pE8I

 

[Plantbrain]

This stops today! The world is a big place and there are lots of opportunities to try out different ways to learn. If I have a problem with these methods, it is MY problem, not yours.

As someone who teaches in another area(Plant Biology), I've always found there are many ways/methods to teach, so if you can master as many methods as possible teaching wise, then you can target the widest range of players/students.

No one method of teach will meet everyone's goal.
Each person is totally different and unique.
I always ask them what their goal is, often, it's "I have to get an "A" otherwise I will not get into med school" and my mom will kill and nag me to death". Whatever that goal is, I work from there to find a method that best achieves that for them and their trade offs. I've had students in late 70's down to 14.

If I could only play one style method, heck, then that's all I got.
I can only teach that method. If I knew a dozen, then I got a lot more tools to work with.

I suppose I could have plenty of methods of teaching, but be not so good at teaching them too
So that can work both ways for sure.
Still, the more tools I have and experience in their use, the better teacher I have become.

Same for playing bass.

Yet, I still hold to everything that I ever stated in regards to being solid methods of learning. But, if some don’t hold to them as I do, then there are lots of musical opportunities for you to check out to see what you can find. I still will champion the musical directions that I believe in. But, I would like to join the family of music educators instead of arguing against them, if they will let me. Again, I apologize for this method of communication. It won’t happen anymore.
Love to all,
Jeff

The web is tougher place so many of the spoken words do not come across as it might in person. Some give a good dose of salt with the posting that would come across very differently in person. Much is lost.

Seems a good idea might be to define each method to learning, look at the various trade offs, and then try and see some general patterns of the typical goal of the bassist.

I've never liked seeing a student fall through the cracks, so I make it very tough for them to do so except as much as possible by their own doing and not my own. I could not sleep at night otherwise. I was that bad student, so I know what it was like

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[Evanseveneleven]

Hi Jeff,

Just wanted to say that I am a huge fan of your playing and have been for years. I was absolutely gutted to find out that you had visited Melbourne a few years back and I never knew. Are there any plans to return?

While I am primarily a rock/metal player, I have transcribed 2 of your solos (Manos De Piedra and Bach) and will probably start Lien on Me as my next project. My suspicion is that the two I have transcribed already were composed rather than improvised and that Lien on Me was improvised. Is that correct?

Another album that I have always loved your playing on is Pat Moraz "i". Did you play fretless on the track "The best years of our lives"? In the end it doesn't really matter as the playing is great regardless.

Cheers

Evan

 

[Ed Fuqua]

As someone who teaches in another area(Plant Biology), I've always found there are many ways/methods to teach,...

There are many methods to teach, but the skill sets that need to be learned are remarkably consistent.

 

[fdeck]

Jeff,

I have two kids in private classical lessons on violin and cello. They are both in grade school. I feel that they are both progressing and having fun. We have a good time practicing together at home.

Do you have an opinion about how and when to ease them into some jazz-oriented study? Their teachers are for the most part, strictly classical oriented. Are there any books for those instruments analogous to what you would recommend for bass? I would learn it along with them, as I play jazz, but never learned it in a formal way.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Jeff,

I have two kids in private classical lessons on violin and cello. They are both in grade school. I feel that they are both progressing and having fun. We have a good time practicing together at home.

Do you have an opinion about how and when to ease them into some jazz-oriented study? Their teachers are for the most part, strictly classical oriented. Are there any books for those instruments analogous to what you would recommend for bass? I would learn it along with them, as I play jazz, but never learned it in a formal way.

you could always remind the teachers that the great players like mingus had classical training......sorry to interrupt

 

[Jim Campbell]

jeff....i would like to raise the question of key centers,and how to approach learning how they work...any thoughts......thanx for hangin' in,by the way

 

[Billnc]

No, no overdubs. I never overdub when I record and I rarely punch in fixes, unless it is something so horrible that I would go screaming into the night if this bit of music was ever released. What you hear, for better or worse, is me.

Frankly with genius solo bass players like Victor Wooten and Mike Manring around, plus with the blazing lines of Hadrien Faraud and Dominique Di Piazza (lately I've become the slowest guy in jazz. No joke!) I decided to leave the solo bass thingy alone and just concentrate on my playing in other melodic areas.

Jeff, the guy I want nothing more to emulate on bass for soloing is Jim Hall, While I love what the other guys are doing I'd love to capture Hall's lyricism on bass.

 

[west*coast*bass]

Ok Jeff, here's a tough question for you...

When will you bring you expertise out west and hold a one week intensive here in the Los Angeles area for those of us who can't get to Florida??? I would LOVE to study with you, even if it's only for one week.

Sure, I know how difficult a task that would be...and it's a selfish request, but I thought I would throw it out that there are probably more than a few LA cats that would love the opportunity to study with you.

Happy Holidays!!!

 

[tomshepp]

Jeff,
I remember a column you wrote about Charlie Banacos. Can you speak a bit about him. The best music teacher I ever had! I still work on that stuff.

 

[dj150888]

Jeff, I'd just like to add another thanks for taking the time to come over here, amongst the bickering in the other thread, I not only found myself learning a lot, but I also found myself open to learning things I hadn't been particularly interested in beforehand.

I'd like to ask you two questions, I'll give a bit of background on myself first so maybe you understand where I'm coming from and why I'm asking. Thanks if you get the time to answer.

Musically, I started off at around 7 years old (I'm 21 now) playing cornet, I learned how to read music playing brass, learned pretty much all of the theory I know through that also. When I first picked up bass guitar I had all the free time in the world and managed to get a lot of practice time in and really enjoyed the feeling I got hearing myself progress. The counterpoint to that was that my bass playing was (and still is) to a much lower standard than my brass playing, I found that frustrating and went through a period in which I was deeply unmotivated and found myself losing interest in bass.

My way, at the time, of dealing with that was to forget about playing electric bass as a "musician" but to rather just play songs for fun. I ended up playing in various bands, eventually settling in the one I'm in now. It was only several months ago that I rekindled my interest in becoming a "musician" again and started to delve a little deeper into what can really be done on the instrument.

I'm very interested in the chordal approach to bass, in fact, I find a lot of your work very inspirational there and I feel I could gain a lot from studying jazz. Unfortunately, my background is very much romantic era classical and I've been having a lot of trouble jumping the gap from classical to jazz.

So, now that I've bored you enough, the questions.

Firstly, have you ever gone through any extended period in which you felt your motivation for learning dip? If so, how did you pull through it?

Secondly, how tough did you find changing from your classical background to your jazz styling now? Do you have an outstanding memory of the moment that you really made the step between the two and what caused that?

Sorry if I've rambled a little or if I'm not very clear about what I'm asking.

 

[jarrhead]

Here is a typical Jeff controversy. I don't think that some people who call themselves musicians should stay in music. Today, witnessing musical success is a remote control button away. It is exciting, attractive to see and it gets a lot of kids wound up to do this. If being a cab driver was as exciting to people as playing a guitar, there would be tons of cab schools and driving shows on TV. It is the glitter of music that got so many people into playing, including the guys who should have stayed fans, instead of trying to be colleagues.

I have a firm stance about this: in music ed, it's my way or the highway. This weeds out the fakers right away. All my students are into it and practice hard. They love the music and they tolerate the uncomfortable reality of learning music out of time and dealing with new practice principles. In my case, this works great. But, there have been several times at The Players School of Music when I told clients to leave. They were taking up my time by never doing their work. All I have ever asked from my guys is to do the work. Nothing else! I am maybe the easiest going teacher there is because I know that mistakes will happen and I don't care. They will be fixed. But just do the work. For this, all our guys are serious from the pure beginner to the advanced guys.

I should remember that you did mention kids, not adults. In this case, just be more fun about it. Put a box of cookies on the shelf and tell them that if they do well, they get a couple of Chip Ahoys. Heck, I'd do more work for a couple of cookies like that.

Haha, I would too, even as I got older!

Another thing I noticed with myself and peers:

Kids generally get serious around 14. 13 maybe. As much as I loved the bass at 12, I couldn't ever get serious, and it would sit there. I don't know why, when it was so great.

So I never played it until I was 13 again, this recent january.

Everybody I know really started learning around 13 or 14.

Me and my buddies are by NO MEANS Jazz players. We play a genre called "mathcore" which is defined as "technical metalcore."

However, we all studied Jazz, and still are. We play in the school Jazz band and practice hours a day.

Point is, the cookies work for anybody! Young kids may need more motivation. I suggest you show them a really cool bass riff of a genre they're interested in.

I have had the pleasure of teaching people to play, some older than me by many years (up to 30. I am 14.) and some as young as 10.

When they were into rock, I would take the time out to learn a great song.

I learned "I'm so Sick" by flyleaf, put in some distortion, and played it right in front of my student. Said "Want to learn how to write stuff like that?"

He listened intently for a dozen lessons, even though they were Jazz. I do them free, so they really have no "my parents will be mad if I dont practice" momentum. You should try something like that!

 

[Mudfuzz]

I'm just popping in to say "great thread" this is more like it.

 

[Dark Horse]

In music, one identifies a sound of an instrument with t e person who "owns" that sound. Nobody defined the piano, the guitar, the acoustic bass, the drums or the electric bass. But only one musician defines the origions of the fretless bass, Jaco Pastorius. No matter if Bill Wyman or the guy from The Band used one first, the genesis of that instrument is pointed at one guy only. For me, the fretless bass has a sound already built into it and because of this, I have never heard a fretless bass player sound origional. The sound is already established by Jaco and everybody who plays fretless comes from that source whether they know it or not. If they are OK with this, then cool.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but IMO to say "everybody who plays fretless comes from that source whether they know it or not" simply points out that you haven't been listening to fretless players. People like Bill Wyman and "the guy from The Band" (his name was Rick Danko, BTW) certainly influenced a ton of fretless players who may have never listened to Jaco or listened to the fretless players Jaco influenced. Jack Bruce, Bob Daisley, Boz Burrell, Bathiki Kumalo, Bunny Brunel, Ralf Gauck, etc all have unique "voices" on the fretless, even the ones who were influenced by Jaco. You can have an influence and not sound "unoriginal".While I certainly understand (and agree) that among fretless bass players, Jaco's sound is most thought of when you mention a "defining sound", to say that because of Jaco, no other bass player "sounds original" is not only a fallacy, but shows that you clearly either don't understand the fretless, or just dismiss a player who's style you don't "personally" like as "derivative". Of course we are just talking about "opinions" here, and you are definitely allowed to disagree with mine, just as I'm allowed to disagree with yours. Thanks for your time and for sharing your opinions.

 

[Billnc]

Jeff, a case where all is not good and other methods are ok. I got a new student last night who is first year violin at school and taken guitar a year and a half. Her previous guitar teacher was showing her Beatles melodies from the "Easy Book" Here's the rub, under the notes was written a fraction, one number a string the other a fret. This is how she was being taught to read, from a hired teacher at another studio.

It was her violin studies that exposed her guitar teacher's methods for what they were and hopefully she is now on the right track. So it's not all ok in the world some methods are bad and should not be tolerated.

 

[TapyTap]

Trust me! You won't be sorry! See you then. P.S. Don't prepare, don't do extra practicing to get ready, don't sweat anything. Just show up at the door and do the work that I give you. Do it fast or slow, it doesn't matter. If you get your lessons and you need more time to work on it, perfect! If you get your lesson and you ate it up, then here's some more. Just do the work and you won't be sorry. Ever!

Fantastic! I look forward to studying with you in the future.

The more I read your posts, watch your recent DVD, and observe the world around me...the more I find your views on music education to be validated in every point you have been making. It flat out amazes me that so many people refuse to embrace these principles and make them their own. However, I really should not be surprised at this...truth has never been popular.

Thank you for exposing music edutainment for what it really is while simultaneously providing excellent resources for music education.

Bryan

 

[Dark Horse]

Fantastic! I look forward to studying with you in the future.

The more I read your posts, watch your recent DVD, and observe the world around me...the more I find your views on music education to be validated in every point you have been making. It flat out amazes me that so many people refuse to embrace these principles and make them their own. However, I really should not be surprised at this...truth has never been popular.

Thank you for exposing music edutainment for what it really is while simultaneously providing excellent resources for music education.

Bryan

That's a GREAT attitude that will serve you well and ensure that you learn a lot from Jeff. One of the real keys to learning is that the student must trust the teacher.

I don't necessarily see the possibility for only one "truth" however. Often there are many ways to get to a given destination. Jeff's way is one of them.

 

[engedi1]

Jeff, a case where all is not good and other methods are ok. I got a new student last night who is first year violin at school and taken guitar a year and a half. Her previous guitar teacher was showing her Beatles melodies from the "Easy Book" Here's the rub, under the notes was written a fraction, one number a string the other a fret. This is how she was being taught to read, from a hired teacher at another studio.

It was her violin studies that exposed her guitar teacher's methods for what they were and hopefully she is now on the right track. So it's not all ok in the world some methods are bad and should not be tolerated.

+1 to hating Tab! I have never understood the use of tab, although it does have an ancient tradition going back to Lute music (not the same as today's tab) I am biased, having taken piano lessons since I was 7, I learned to read both cleff's early.

Learning to read music is painful, I remember horrible flashcard sessions, but once you are past the hump, the whole world of music opens up for you. Also, it makes learning a new instrument so much easier, since once the reading chops are developed, all you have to focus on is the challenges of the new instrument. When I started playing upright bass at 15, I shot ahead of my fellow students, since I could already read bass clef, I just had to learn where the notes where on the bass. I already had some idea since I had been playing elec bass and guitar since I was 13.
This is not to say that one should neglect ear training, which is a common mistake of many classical students. Their reading is so proficient, that it becomes a crutch. As the ancient chinese proverb says "an unguarded strength is a double weakness"

The ideal practice session should involve both sight reading, and transcribing by ear, to strengthen both muscles.

Guys who refuse to learn to read are really shooting themselves in the foot. I can't understand this attitude.