Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[shwashwa]

are either gary dial or charlie banacos' daughter giving correspondence lessons?

 

[JeffBerlin]

I wouldn't hesitate to put the blame 100% on the teacher. A student should have confidence that the time and money he's spending with a teacher is going to be worth it and the teacher should know better than to squander the minutes they have together on things that don't matter.

There's not a single "teacher/student" movie that doesn't hinge on how the teacher's seemingly unrelated lessons actually turn out to be the ones that the student never forgets and that carry them through the challenges they face in their pursuit of whatever it is they were learning.

"Wax on, wax off" - right, grasshopper?

I would have to agree! Teachers make the decisions about what and how to teach! If the pressure to deviate from what know to be better practice material is too much, then they shouldn't teach because they aren't providing a good service to their clients. They are enabling them, making excuses why they are teaching, say, Rush tunes instead of musical content.

 

[JeffBerlin]

yeah,i get that,but the larger body of music teachers out there may not have the juice to call their own shots......the adult market is already burdened with the errors of misguided music store teaching philosophy,and hit or miss band programs,and i would bet that you spend a fair amount of time correcting that

maybe the larger goal for you could be educating teachers

This would be a good idea except for the fact that many of these teachers debate me as if I commited a crime! They aren't into musical principles and have no interest in compromising their positions about how to learn. It is a free country and I can't do anything except to sound a tsunami warning. Either players will get out of the way of the lesser capable teachers or they won't!

 

[JeffBerlin]

are either gary dial or charlie banacos' daughter giving correspondence lessons?

Let me find out!!

 

[tZer]

Not to be argumentative (Jim) - but my little anecdote has no "parents" involved. The student is an adult. The "teacher" is neither an adult, nor a teacher and the point of my rant is how one can know whether or not their teacher is worth paying for lessons.

If the teacher says, "I'll teach you whatever you want to learn - if you want to learn a Rush song, I'll teach you that - if you don't care about scales or musical terminology, I won't waste your time with that stuff" then you should politely say, "No thank you".

A good teacher can know the student wants to play Rush songs and can even promise that the lessons he'll provide will result in the student's ability to do so. But a 'jam buddy' is not a teacher. Someone who'll sit there with you and walk you through, note-for-note a Rush song, but not share one iota of musical insight is stealing your money - unless you wanted to pay for a jam buddy - which is a little pathetic to me...

 

[shwashwa]

Let me find out!!

yes, please let me know if you can. thank you very much!

 

[Jim Campbell]

This would be a good idea except for the fact that many of these teachers debate me as if I commited a crime! They aren't into musical principles and have no interest in compromising their positions about how to learn. It is a free country and I can't do anything except to sound a tsunami warning. Either players will get out of the way of the lesser capable teachers or they won't!

.....i think most rational people would prefer your methods,and can see the connection to long term growth,but how many are even aware that it's an option......i've had a few lessons,and just assumed that the teachers were doing it right.....as it turns out the one guy i met that did it right was the guy i rejected,because at the time i could not see that connection....

 

[CDweller]

Silly question time...sorry.

When you say "octave", what do you mean?

Sorry, I'm sure this is a stupid question, but remember...newbie here.

Am I making sense, hell, I'm confusing myself.

See, I told you, I really know very little.

I dare say the calibre of players here are not going to rank on you because you're at the start of the path, and any number of things might not be clear yet. Some are going to ask rather deep questions, while others may have more fundamental q's.

An interval of an octave is the distance between two notes separated by 12 half steps or semitones. For instance: play an E on the lowest string (4-string bass). Then play an E on that same string at the 12th fret. Voila- two different notes, separated in pitch by one octave.
Edit: oops- Jeff already explained it.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Not to be argumentative (Jim) - but my little anecdote has no "parents" involved. The student is an adult. The "teacher" is neither an adult, nor a teacher and the point of my rant is how one can know whether or not their teacher is worth paying for lessons.

If the teacher says, "I'll teach you whatever you want to learn - if you want to learn a Rush song, I'll teach you that - if you don't care about scales or musical terminology, I won't waste your time with that stuff" then you should politely say, "No thank you".

A good teacher can know the student wants to play Rush songs and can even promise that the lessons he'll provide will result in the student's ability to do so. But a 'jam buddy' is not a teacher. Someone who'll sit there with you and walk you through, note-for-note a Rush song, but not share one iota of musical insight is stealing your money - unless you wanted to pay for a jam buddy - which is a little pathetic to me...

i get that,i was talking in more general terms....and you are right.....but from the point of view of most guitar store teachers their survival depends on going with the flow,and even most of their adult students probably don't really know the difference,and/or see music education as a short term goal

 

[CDweller]

To make the 10,000 hour concept more palatable, just practice "The Good Stuff" for an hour a day.

1. Take breaks if you are blurring over the music. Practice slowly, out of time, no metronomes.

2. Read, read, read, read, read music every single day!

3. Practice jazz just for its academic vitamins, not for a career choice if you wish to NOT become a jazz player.

4. Trombone music has no equal in reading and melody/harmony/rhythm! But, like anything else, you have to get the right music for your particular level.

5. Do not confuse practicing with playing (which is what practically every teacher I know has done. This is why they still insist that you practice with a metronome!).

6. Be wary of any teacher who emphasises in their lessons talking about gigs, the studio, click tracks, the groove, the pocket. etc. Forget all of that! These things are a DUH! They are so standard in the playing requirements of every musician who ever played that it doesn't need all the reviewing that so many teachers are putting into these things.

7. Make mistakes! II IS NO BIG DEAL TO MAKE MISTAKES WHEN PRACTICING! Just fix them! This is what good practicing is for!

8. Practicing does NOT make perfect! Practicing makes BETTER and there is a big difference between the two.

9. Use your ear as often as you can, including when tuning your instrument.

10. There are not a lot of different ways to learn how to play. There are better and worse ways to learn how to play. Choose the better ways or you won't get what you have been working to get!

That's it for now! I hope that I helped!

This is getting printed, and hung on the wall in my practice space. I am currently a tad dispirited, because I have had some dismal experiences out at public jams in the past couple of weeks. Yet I have the opportunity to progress every day in my practice, and the dismal experiences are fuel for improving as a musician who's primary instrument is bass.

I really like hearing horns when I play with other guys, and unfortunately, loud rock guitar is the most prevalent instrument out there these days. I'm tempted to see if Ray Anderson, who's local to me, gives lessons. I've often thought that it would be interesting to learn bass from a horn player's point of view. I imagine Ray would tell me to talk to Mark Helias instead.

Looking forward to proper guidance at the upcoming One Week Intensive- less than three weeks to go. If you're sitting on the fence about going, I'd beg, borrow or steal the funds to go. Golden opportunity to get real.

 

[JeffBerlin]

.....i think most rational people would prefer your methods,and can see the connection to long term growth,but how many are even aware that it's an option......i've had a few lessons,and just assumed that the teachers were doing it right.....as it turns out the one guy i met that did it right was the guy i rejected,because at the time i could not see that connection....

My methods are long ago established in music. It really wasn't until the last 25 years of rock academics and music magazine tab philosophy has the concepts of great principles of learning been compromised.

In the early days, I used to write articles with more heat than I do today (Imagine! These are demonstrations of me restraining my words! Yipes!) Bass Player magazine enjoyed the "controversy" because it was good for business. I wrote that in lessons, one needs academic principle as an exclusive. Steve Bailey used to comment back that everything works and there are lots of different roads to good playing.

It was actually great theater, but BP were prejudiced against my points (they'll deny it probably). How do I know? Because the overwhelming amount of comments that they printed in the Letters Page were against me and my points about how to learn. One days I asked Karl Coryat, the editor of the magazine at that time if he was only receiving negative comments to my points about how to learn. He said no, that there were lots of positive comments as well. I asked him why he didn't publish the positive ones along with the negative ones, to at least balance the opinions a little bit. He said something to the effect that since I stuck my neck out about what I stood for, then I had to keep quiet about the responses that I got.

Being the inexperienced guy about such things, I simply did my best to stand up for musical quality and calling a spade a spade, that is, calling bad musical instruction exactly what it was! I caught a lot of flack for this (I still do sometimes). But, like Jesus, Malcolm X, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, in fact, anybody who goes against the majority when the majority is wrong, I got retaliated against by the overwhelming majority of misguided players out there. Do I think that I am as important as these people? No way! Do I think that I belong in their group. You are darned right I do! I took some hits for trying to show bad advice for what it was, and a lot of people took offense as if I called their mothers a bad word.

But, these days, the group is getting less and less (has anyone noticed this as well?) I will take full credit for turning things around in regards about what and how to learn a bass guitar. Am I as important as Jesus, Malcolm, Gandhi, King and Parks? No! But, we belong in the same group. I am just way, way down the importance line....

 

[JeffBerlin]

I dare say the calibre of players here are not going to rank on you because you're at the start of the path, and any number of things might not be clear yet. Some are going to ask rather deep questions, while others may have more fundamental q's.

An interval of an octave is the distance between two notes separated by 12 half steps or semitones. For instance: play an E on the lowest string (4-string bass). Then play an E on that same string at the 12th fret. Voila- two different notes, separated in pitch by one octave.
Edit: oops- Jeff already explained it.

No problem. Thank you for helping!

 

[chadhargis]

Looking forward to proper guidance at the upcoming One Week Intensive- less than three weeks to go. If you're sitting on the fence about going, I'd beg, borrow or steal the funds to go. Golden opportunity to get real.

Man, I wish I was going, just couldn't swing the cash and time off for March.

I'm shooting for September. My part time motorcycle teaching gig starts this weekend, so I'll be setting that money aside and sending it Jeff's way as soon as I can cover the tuition.

Hopefully by that time, I won't be asking stupid tuning questions.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This is getting printed, and hung on the wall in my practice space. I am currently a tad dispirited, because I have had some dismal experiences out at public jams in the past couple of weeks. Yet I have the opportunity to progress every day in my practice, and the dismal experiences are fuel for improving as a musician who's primary instrument is bass.

I really like hearing horns when I play with other guys, and unfortunately, loud rock guitar is the most prevalent instrument out there these days. I'm tempted to see if Ray Anderson, who's local to me, gives lessons. I've often thought that it would be interesting to learn bass from a horn player's point of view. I imagine Ray would tell me to talk to Mark Helias instead.

Looking forward to proper guidance at the upcoming One Week Intensive- less than three weeks to go. If you're sitting on the fence about going, I'd beg, borrow or steal the funds to go. Golden opportunity to get real.

I would LOVE to see a lot of guys come to the One Week Event! I just don't actually believe that many guys are into learning about music, especially when there are more entertaining directions that one can take in music ed.

Some guys may have a mis-conception about me and the Players School. Tell me if I am describing you or not.

1. Some guys think that you already have to know how to play before you get here.

2. Some guys think that I am a tough teacher.

3. Some guys think that I want you to be jazzers.

4. Some guys think that you have to already read music before coming here.

5. Some guys think that I am too hard on my students.

If any of these things rings a bell, or if you have any problems with what you have heard about me, cool! Just write me here and I will do my best to clarify things for you. This is NOT to recruit you. This is to clarify thoughts about what is going on at PSM or maybe how you can make some clearer decision about how to find a good academic teacher in your area. Ask away if you wish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Man, I wish I was going, just couldn't swing the cash and time off for March.

I'm shooting for September. My part time motorcycle teaching gig starts this weekend, so I'll be setting that money aside and sending it Jeff's way as soon as I can cover the tuition.

Hopefully by that time, I won't be asking stupid tuning questions.

You have to begin SOMEWHERE! It is cool to come to The Players School at your level. This simply means that this is where we will begin your lessons!

 

[Jehos]

Links to chronological lists of some things Berklee College of Music would teach.

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Jeff, I'm curious what your opinion of this curriculum is. Berklee's online offerings, while not cheap, certainly look appealing to me as a guy with a desk job who wants to fill in his musical knowledge. I'd love to do something like a year long course at the Player's School, or enroll in the Bachelor's program at the nearby University of North Texas, but frankly either option is more change than I can afford to make in my life. The bills have to get paid, you know?

 

[Billnc]

i get that,i was talking in more general terms....and you are right.....but from the point of view of most guitar store teachers their survival depends on going with the flow,and even most of their adult students probably don't really know the difference,and/or see music education as a short term goal

This is one of my situations. I've had to fight the good fight, at the expense of possibly giving that gig up. But I feel very strongly that with the cutbacks in school music ed, if a student does not take band, or make band I'm possibly the only chance for some kind of music education.

 

[chadhargis]

Being the inexperienced guy about such things, I simply did my best to stand up for musical quality and calling a spade a spade, that is, calling bad musical instruction exactly what it was! I caught a lot of flack for this (I still do sometimes). But, like Jesus, Malcolm X, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, in fact, anybody who goes against the majority when the majority is wrong, I got retaliated against by the overwhelming majority of misguided players out there.

Jeff, your passion for music shows in every post. That's what is unique about you over many, many people out there. You care. It would be easy for you to sell out or just fade quietly away.

The proof is in the pudding. Your methods worked for you and have worked for your students. 'Nuff said.

Being retaliated against for your take on teaching/learning music makes no sense. People learn in different ways. While some players can play by ear, and have a successful hobby/career as a niche player, you advocate learning MUSIC above playing. If you know music, and never play anything other than 12 bar blues, is that so bad? But what if you don't know music, and you have to pass on a opportunity to play another genre of music because it's outside of your "ears" knowledge (ie. you've never heard the music before)?

I couldn't agree more regarding learning music. In my wildest dreams, I would like to know MUSIC above all and be able to pick up a guitar, sit at a piano, grab an upright, move to a 6 string bass or to a 4 string....and just play. Applying musical principles to help me "get things under my fingers" (as Adam Nitti calls it).

I'm blown away by guys who can do this. I remember singing in church once and our music pastor (who plays 8 instruments) was supposed to be on acoustic guitar for a song, but his guitar wasn't getting a signal to the board (for whatever reason). Instead of looking confused, he walked over to the piano and played the guitar part on the piano and never missed a beat. Did it with no music, and no rehearsal. He just played.

Guess that's why he had a #1 song on the charts back in the 80's. He's good!

 

[tZer]

i get that,i was talking in more general terms....and you are right.....but from the point of view of most guitar store teachers their survival depends on going with the flow,and even most of their adult students probably don't really know the difference,and/or see music education as a short term goal

Agreed. I would argue (because that's what I do) that the reason for this is because it's permitted to happen. I don't want to become a crusader, but boy the temptation is there to crusade.

I won't do anything to jeopardize his situation - that'd be wrong. But as a true believer in what we're talking about here, I can't ignore the compulsion to want to do something. I know for a fact I could easily take this student and after one 1/2 hour lesson 'redirect' his head and get that Rush song under his fingers by the following lesson. The student is intelligent, has the desire and is DYING to have a good teacher take him to the next level... This poor young teacher simply isn't that teacher - and probably doesn't even know it. He probably thinks the reason his student is not progressing is the student's fault - not his.

It's hard to sit by and watch this happen each week...

 

[Schlyder]

Jeff, your message still made it through. Lots of players, myself included, read and were influenced by your columns in BP in the olden days. Only in those days it was just the "Only Stuff". There was less noise to filter out than there is nowadays.
I remember lots of your columns, one of them, "Water On The Brain" that had the floppy plastic 45RPM record. ( hahahaha I wore that thing out. ) It was a great sightreading excersise for reading notes on the high ledger lines.