Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[John Wentzien]

QUESTION:

Let's say I transcribe a solo. Would I do better to learn one possible fingering for the solo, and move onto transcribing and playing others, or should I spend more time with the original solo with different possible fingerings, and then move on?

What I do is try ALL the possible fingerings...Then I usually go with the one that is most economical from point A to point B.
Especially if it goes over several octaves...
The less "shifting" the better IMO..

 

[chadhargis]

Go to Jeff's school instead!

I had a scholarship to college, no wife, no kid, and a part time job....that's what made college so good. The parties were a byproduct.

You can always just spill some bong water and Natty Light on an old rug in your basement and keep doing what you're doing. It'll save you big $$ in the long run!

I've tried that. It's not the same.

Therefore, can someone tell me what makes a great teacher a great teacher? The answer, I'm guessing, is in this thread somewhere but it's a loooong thread to catch up on...

I'll give you the top answers:

1) One the teaches the "good stuff"

2) You'll know it when you you find one

3) One that DOESN'T tell you to learn chops, use metronomes, or that uses tab.

4) One that doesn't teach you slap, tap, or other "performance" oriented things.

5) One that teaches trombone music


Of course, none of those will tell you what you really need. I anxiously await the day when someone says. "A good teacher starts here...." and lists everything a beginner needs to know all the way to what a seasoned player needs to work on.

If Wikipedia can house 3.2 million articles, then we should make a "Good Stuff" wiki that has at least that many.

 

[Billnc]

Good stuff #1
Learn to read all musical principles should be notated.

 

[longrange]

If Wikipedia can house 3.2 million articles, then we should make a "Good Stuff" wiki that has at least that many. [/QUOTE]

Count me in! You and I, sir, are in similar places me thinks..

 

[chadhargis]

Count me in! You and I, sir, are in similar places me thinks..

Believe me, if much of said "good stuff" wasn't a guarded secret like voodoo black magic, I'd be posting away.

It's why I'm looking forward to attending Jeff's one week course. Practice is easy, it's WHAT to practice that's hard. Study is easy, it's WHAT to study that's difficult.

What you practice and study varies with your skill level, so it's impossible for anyone to tell you what you personally need without first evaluating what you know.

That's where a good teacher comes in. But I have to believe there is an agreed upon set of "foundational knowledge" that all musicians should know regardless of what you play, how good your ear is, or how much natural talent you have.

 

[John Wentzien]

Believe me, if much of said "good stuff" wasn't a guarded secret like voodoo black magic, I'd be posting away.

It's why I'm looking forward to attending Jeff's one week course. Practice is easy, it's WHAT to practice that's hard. Study is easy, it's WHAT to study that's difficult.

What you practice and study varies with your skill level, so it's impossible for anyone to tell you what you personally need without first evaluating what you know.

That's where a good teacher comes in. But I have to believe there is an agreed upon set of "foundational knowledge" that all musicians should know regardless of what you play, how good your ear is, or how much natural talent you have.

It's not voodoo.
Chord structures with inversions..
How they sound , and how they relate to the music you are playing!
(especially Jazz..because there is enough movement in this music to make it a challenge)
But this still applies to ALL "genres"
The more you know; the easier it gets!

 

[chadhargis]

The more you know; the easier it gets!

Yeah...but to me it's voodoo.

Gotta remember, I've only been at this for about 2 months.

 

[John Wentzien]

Yeah...but to me it's voodoo.

Gotta remember, I've only been at this for about 2 months.

Start small...and go Big!
Learn all the chords in "Triads" first (root 3rd & 5)
Major , minor, diminished and augmented...
Then addd the 7th...
Then start adding (tensions)
You can't get it all at once

 

[squirtle]

This 10,000 hour rule is very interesting. A friend of mine wanted to learn how to bbq so he could compete on the BBQ circuit. He went to a contest one night and kept pestering one old timer with a bunch of questions. The old timer was Danny Head. He makes Head Country BBQ sauce out of Oklahoma. Danny told him that if he wanted to learn to bbq to show up the next morning and he would put him to work. Mike showed up bright and early (he didn't even leave, he slept in his car there at the contest) and Danny showed him the ropes. Mike then spent the rest of the year practicing bbq. He said that he cooked 200 briskets getting ready to compete the next year. The Kansas City BBQ Society has four meat categories for a contest, brisket, pork shoulder, ribs, and chicken. It takes about 12 to 14 hours to cook a good brisket, 10 hours or so for pork, 5 hours for ribs, etc. It looks to me like Mike put in around 6000 hours of practice that year. He went on to win Kansas City BBQ Society Team of the Year the 4 times. I'm working on hour number three in Ed Friedland's, Bass Method Book 1, and I'm pretty excited because tomorrow it's....dotted quarter notes!
Squirtle

 

[Billnc]

This 10,000 hour rule is very interesting. A friend of mine wanted to learn how to bbq so he could compete on the BBQ circuit. He went to a contest one night and kept pestering one old timer with a bunch of questions. The old timer was Danny Head. He makes Head Country BBQ sauce out of Oklahoma. Danny told him that if he wanted to learn to bbq to show up the next morning and he would put him to work. Mike showed up bright and early (he didn't even leave, he slept in his car there at the contest) and Danny showed him the ropes. Mike then spent the rest of the year practicing bbq. He said that he cooked 200 briskets getting ready to compete the next year. The Kansas City BBQ Society has four meat categories for a contest, brisket, pork shoulder, ribs, and chicken. It takes about 12 to 14 hours to cook a good brisket, 10 hours or so for pork, 5 hours for ribs, etc. It looks to me like Mike put in around 6000 hours of practice that year. He went on to win Kansas City BBQ Society Team of the Year the 4 times. I'm working on hour number three in Ed Friedland's, Bass Method Book 1, and I'm pretty excited because tomorrow it's....dotted quarter notes!
Squirtle

I play a lot of events where there are BBQ and Chilli cook offs (I guess many of us do) they are very serious.

 

[John Wentzien]

I play a lot of events where there are BBQ and Chilli cook offs (I guess many of us do) they are very serious.

Almost enough to turn me off from it!
Not ALL Guys on the "Chitlin Circuit" want BBQ for every meal!

 

[Funkturnal]

QUESTION:

Let's say I transcribe a solo. Would I do better to learn one possible fingering for the solo, and move onto transcribing and playing others, or should I spend more time with the original solo with different possible fingerings, and then move on?

If I may try to answer that, IMHO I think it is worthwhile to learn learn it in different keys (all 12 keys). Maybe not the whole solo, but the lines that are "academically sound". I'm talking about the lines that not only sound good, but lines that are firmly entrenched in academic principles.

Learning them in different keys forces you to learn different fingerings, and really "hear" the notes as you try to "find" them. Also, what I've found is that I've had to learn to "transpose octaves" on the fly. What I mean by that is, for example, let's say you are playing a min7b5 arpeggio starting on a note on the A-string (I'm assuming a 4-string bass). If you try to play the same arpeggio up a 4th, this time starting on the D-string, you could either play it on 2 strings (the D and G strings) with some stretching. Or, you could start on the D-string (root) and play the min 3rd on the E-string, and go up to the b5 on the A-string etc.

This is stuff that I'm working on now, and I've found that not only is it helping me understand the fingerboard better, but it is also helping my ear to develop as these really put a lot more to the test than just muscle memory.

 

[Billnc]

Almost enough to turn me off from it!
Not ALL Guys on the "Chitlin Circuit" want BBQ for every meal!

I'm vegetarian! But I recommend NC Lexington BBQ.

Oh the 10,000 hour rule does apply to work, gigs wouldn't count. Also there is usually a 10,000 hour work gap between, breakthroughs, this equates to about every 7 to 10 years, Miles Davis anyone?

 

[Funkturnal]

Drummers do this to bring down the level of band intensity behind the bass solo. This is a carry over from when the upright bass players took a solo, and the drummer would drop his level of volume and busy playing style to allow the upright's notes to be heard.

But I function with ampliers and can compete easily with a drummers volume and intensity output. I just don't like it when soloists in a band gets a certain intensity level of playing behind their solos, but then they drop low for me to play. I actually love it when those guys are boiling along and then I have a solo that joins their intensity. I really dislike it when drummers go to the high-hat during my solo for that reason.

Jeff, thanks for the valuable insight! I've felt and thought the exact same thing, which is what prompted me to ask the original question. But to hear it from someone of your caliber, who plays with equally qualified musicians, is reaffirming.

I've often found from playing with different musicians that when it's time for a bass solo, people tend to think that backing off the intensity is always appropriate.

But I find it very frustrating. I don't surf at all, but I imagine it would be like a surfer who sees a wave coming, and as he or she gets ready to ride the wave, the wave just disintegrates.

There may be times when it is appropriate for the intensity to lessen, but I often want to use the intensity of the groove as a springboard to my solos. I don't want the groove to deflate when it's my turn!

 

[Eminentbass]

Jeff, thanks for the valuable insight! I've felt and thought the exact same thing, which is what prompted me to ask the original question. But to hear it from someone of your caliber, who plays with equally qualified musicians, is reaffirming.

I've often found from playing with different musicians that when it's time for a bass solo, people tend to think that backing off the intensity is always appropriate.

But I find it very frustrating. I don't surf at all, but I imagine it would be like a surfer who sees a wave coming, and as he or she gets ready to ride the wave, the wave just disintegrates.

There may be times when it is appropriate for the intensity to lessen, but I often want to use the intensity of the groove as a springboard to my solos. I don't want the groove to deflate when it's my turn!

It can be very frustrating. For some reason the guys I've played with see a bass solo as a chance to stop and take a sip from their drinks. It makes it hard to be dynamic or make a solo take direction. That and I don't like the sound of my bass alone, I like to hear it blending with the band.

It's great to play with a drummer who listens and can anticipate my phrasing and hit certain accents with me.

 

[RWRLV]

REGARDING “”Do you think this may be a good way for a young student to have a clue of what to look for in a teacher or school? A chronological list of sorts. “(of things you will learn & in what order they need to be..)

Could be. If lessons are organized, it should mean that you would touch upon them at some point. But I know that people learn slower or faster or the same. For me, if a guy comes to a Players School 10 week course, they might finish up with only 8 weeks of work or possibly 13 weeks of work. Some guys learn slower or faster than other guys.

I thought by sharing the lists with you it would help with the “could be” part of your answer. Not that this is concrete but I would say it or something like it would give a kid a better idea about things than say the advice you get from the Snake Oil peddlers.

Links to chronological lists of some things Berklee College of Music would teach.

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Regarding the time, time spent part , how fast or slow, 5 weeks or 5 decades. :
I don't find you to be a “look at me kind of guy” but I look at you or recommend people look at you as an example, rather than a source at times. If the bio information I have read about you is correct, you started when you were 5 years old & claim to still be learning new things to this day. That kind of spells it out to me as I think it should to others..NO Hurry just get busy.

Leading me to you as an example:
It is funny how in some circles the utter mention of your name and the fact that I agree with your way of doing things will cause debate.
The McDonald's Culture vs Jeff Berlin's education methods.
McDonald 's = Fast instant gratification, all things bad for you 24/7. I could play, I read tab real good I know nothing.
Jeff Berlin= ancient & proven. An example of proper academics , long, boring & narrow like any good education. A tough sell.

I like your twist on "better" also. ""Aspire to close the GAP""

 

[JeffBerlin]

Bubbly, like JW said - and those of us who played brass know exactly what that sounds and smells like! I found my old trombone in the attic a few months ago - opened that case and was instantly transported back in time 25 years.

But to be clear, I said jazz smells like spit-soaked brass.

Glad that you cleared that up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JeffBerlin]

QUESTION:

Let's say I transcribe a solo. Would I do better to learn one possible fingering for the solo, and move onto transcribing and playing others, or should I spend more time with the original solo with different possible fingerings, and then move on?

The idea is to write it and then play it a lot. You don't have to include solid fingering principles either because the more that you review what you wrote out, the clearer the fingerings will become. In fact, if you ever saw how I mover around my neck when I play new music, I would look like a guy with no clue about what I was doing. My hand is simply never sure where to stay.

But, I DO know where the notes are and so I almost always play the correct notes, just in a spastic manner. But, over time, my hands seem to find much more economical positions to play what might best be described as music NOT designed for electric bass players.

 

[chadhargis]

REGARDING “”Do you think this may be a good way for a young student to have a clue of what to look for in a teacher or school? A chronological list of sorts. “(of things you will learn & in what order they need to be..)



I thought by sharing the lists with you it would help with the “could be” part of your answer. Not that this is concrete but I would say it or something like it would give a kid a better idea about things than say the advice you get from the Snake Oil peddlers.

Links to chronological lists of some things Berklee College of Music would teach.

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

Regarding the time, time spent part , how fast or slow, 5 weeks or 5 decades. :
I don't find you to be a “look at me kind of guy” but I look at you or recommend people look at you as an example, rather than a source at times. If the bio information I have read about you is correct, you started when you were 5 years old & claim to still be learning new things to this day. That kind of spells it out to me as I think it should to others..NO Hurry just get busy.

Leading me to you as an example:
It is funny how in some circles the utter mention of your name and the fact that I agree with your way of doing things will cause debate.
The McDonald's Culture vs Jeff Berlin's education methods.
McDonald 's = Fast instant gratification, all things bad for you 24/7. I could play, I read tab real good I know nothing.
Jeff Berlin= ancient & proven. An example of proper academics , long, boring & narrow like any good education. A tough sell.

I like your twist on "better" also. ""Aspire to close the GAP""

Ahhhhh....this is beautiful!!!

Nice to know that I'm into the 5th lesson of the first course. The rest of the stuff gets real fuzzy real fast. I'm going to have to spend some quality Google time and start reading up. I've got an upcoming business trip that's going to have me away from my bass for three days. Wheeeeeee theory study time.

 

[JeffBerlin]

If Wikipedia can house 3.2 million articles, then we should make a "Good Stuff" wiki that has at least that many.

Count me in! You and I, sir, are in similar places me thinks..[/QUOTE]

JEFF - But I want the credit for coming up with the expression!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!