Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[John Wentzien]

Every drummer who I play with does this as well, just not tapping on a hi-hat when I solo. Actually, I really dislike the sound of hi-hat cymbals being played while closed when I play.

Sound too much like a "click-track" Jeff?

 

[tZer]

Ask anything that you wish! In my case, it is what I want when I solo. Anybody who plays with me will accomodate me during my few moments to play, as I would accomodate what they would need if they asked for it.

Thanks for the response. It is important to have a solid and shared understanding of these things within a band.

Do you, as a matter of protocol, go over such things with your bands when you first get together? Do you have a 'hit list' of do's and dont's that you discuss when you start playing with new players?

 

[ccyork]

Yep, I can.

My brother is one of them. Never had a music class in his life. Took a six months of banjo lessons and the teacher said, "You're better than I am". When guys like Bela Fleck say you're good, you're pretty dang good. Yet my brother can't tell you how he plays. He is incapable of giving even his own son lessons. Has no clue how he knows what he knows. Credits slowing down records and learning to play songs. I've seen him asleep playing, and never miss a note. Total subconscious level of playing. Never thinks about it.

Just about any musician who grew up poor (especially if it was decades ago and they were black) never had access to any music education (or education of any kind in some instances). Yet there are prolific players from those decades. Even Louis Armstrong called playing gigs on a riverboat, "going to the university". It's WAS his education. Huddie "Leadbelly" Leadbetter played the twelve string guitar, and could also play the piano, mandolin, harmonica, violin, concertina, and accordion, yet spent much of his life in prison. He certainly never attended a university.

Those people learn in different ways than I learn. They are "born" with something I don't have. I NEED to know the academic principle behind something. For example, I was really struggling learning the scale modes my teacher gave me until I researched scale modes and what they were. Once I understood them, I could play them without any problems or having to refer back to a chart. My speed is not good, but it will come. I'm very logical, so the academic side helps me quite a bit.

There are people who have an exceptional ear, a good memory, and can learn an instrument based on what it sounds like. They don't know the "why" but they know the "how", if that makes any sense.

It's kids like this, who have never had a lesson, yet can play anything, that amaze me:



I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Mr. Gladwell, but his argument is very compelling.

 

[Chupacabra]

Drummers do this to bring down the level of band intensity behind the bass solo. This is a carry over from when the upright bass players took a solo, and the drummer would drop his level of volume and busy playing style to allow the upright's notes to be heard.

But I function with ampliers and can compete easily with a drummers volume and intensity output. I just don't like it when soloists in a band gets a certain intensity level of playing behind their solos, but then they drop low for me to play. I actually love it when those guys are boiling along and then I have a solo that joins their intensity. I really dislike it when drummers go to the high-hat during my solo for that reason.

Ah I see, makes perfect sense like that, thanks

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thanks for the response. It is important to have a solid and shared understanding of these things within a band.

Do you, as a matter of protocol, go over such things with your bands when you first get together? Do you have a 'hit list' of do's and dont's that you discuss when you start playing with new players?

No, things just come up and we talk about them!

 

[tZer]

No, things just come up and we talk about them!

Gotcha. I've been fortunate and the drummers I play with regularly have really great ears and instincts. My style has always been more as a member of the rhythm section supporting soloists, so I've always worked hard to pay close attention to their intensity and play accordingly - but when it's come to me 'featuring' or soloing I've never had a situation where the drummer played in a way that I didn't dig - mostly because we tend to work together as a unit even in 'feature' situations.

But you and other players who frequently stand dead center in the spot light are in a realm that I've yet to be brave enough to venture into for any longer than a good 8 or 16 bars so I don't think I've developed enough of a personal sense of my own solo ability to think that much about what others are doing when I'm in that spot!

I'm working on it though. I do want to be able to step up and do it to it as long as I want whenever I want.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This is a very interesting discussion. Your brother obviously has an amazing gift, Chad.

I'd be interested in hearing Jeff's take on Malcolm Gladwell's "10,000 hour rule" that he wrote about in his book "Outliers". Basically he postulates that in order to reach a virtuoso level of proficiency in any endeavor it takes a minimum of 10,000 hours of practice.

Here are 2 links if you've never heard of it, but you really must read the book to get the full picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz4hPbHIZ6Y
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Mr. Gladwell, but his argument is very compelling.

I certainly do agree with the philosophy that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and LOTS of practice over time will turn most players in far far far far far FAR better players than they ever would be without it.

 

[Billnc]

This is a very interesting discussion. Your brother obviously has an amazing gift, Chad.

I'd be interested in hearing Jeff's take on Malcolm Gladwell's "10,000 hour rule" that he wrote about in his book "Outliers". Basically he postulates that in order to reach a virtuoso level of proficiency in any endeavor it takes a minimum of 10,000 hours of practice.

Here are 2 links if you've never heard of it, but you really must read the book to get the full picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz4hPbHIZ6Y
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Mr. Gladwell, but his argument is very compelling.

It's not really Gladwells own thesis, I believe I read it first in a book called Genius which gave a history of Freud, Martha Graham, Einstein, Stravinski and others who have excelled at the highest level. Quite interesting as was Gladwell's book.
What I found interesting in Genius, was those that made it all the way to the top had peers with which to communicate their ideas, look at what comes from 'scenes' Freud and Jung, Be Bop in New York etc.

There is a case to be made for Chad's brother putting in lots of hours as he alludes to.

We seem to share a mutual interest here! I'll edit my post with the authors name.

It is Genius Explained by Michael Howe

 

[chadhargis]

I certainly do agree with the philosophy that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and LOTS of practice over time will turn most players in far far far far far FAR better players than they ever would be without it.

I think we all agree on that. But it's not always just about practice. Practice will take you to the next level if you continue to push yourself. What that next level is is largely dependent on your ability. How far that level is above the last is largely dependent on ability.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think we all agree on that. But it's not always just about practice. Practice will take you to the next level if you continue to push yourself. What that next level is is largely dependent on your ability. How far that level is above the last is largely dependent on ability.

Actually, it is all about practice, since there is no need to discuss ability because one's ability is what it is. It might be best to discuss what one can do to improve their ability, and that is to work on it!

 

[ccyork]

It is Genius Explained by Michael Howe

Thanks, I'll have to check that book out. It sounds interesting.

Another interesting point that Gladwell, like Howe, makes in his book is that people rarely achieve to the highest levels without the assistance of others. (Supports Jeff's admonition to get a good teacher.)

 

[chadhargis]

What I found interesting in Genius, was those that made it all the way to the top had peers with which to communicate their ideas

YES!! That's why I love this place.

That's why if I could play worth a damn, I'd do my level best to get some sort of "jam night" set up. Heck even just hanging out with local players for a beer or two would be a big help to new players.

 

[chadhargis]

Actually, it is all about practice, since there is no need to discuss ability because one's ability is what it is. It might be best to discuss what one can do to improve their ability, and that is to work on it!

Can you improve ability? I've always connected ability with potential. It's constant. It's what's there.

You hear people talk about doing something to "the best of their ability". That's the absolute physical or mental limit.

 

[tZer]

Can you improve ability? I've always connected ability with potential. It's constant. It's what's there.

You hear people talk about doing something to "the best of their ability". That's the absolute physical or mental limit.

Ability = what you can do now
Potential = what you can possibly do if...

 

[John Wentzien]

Ability = what you can do now
Potential = what you can possibly do if...

Work = Possibility of what can be done with Ability

 

[tZer]

Work = Possibility of what can be done with Ability

Work = energy put into realizing potential

 

[chadhargis]

Good stuff guys.

This has to be the best thread on the internet.

It's tough to read personality on the Internet. Always know that anything I post is done so with humility and comes from my limited understanding of music and playing. I hope I never come off as a "know it all", because I'd be the last one to admit I know anything music related.

I really enjoy the interaction.

 

[tZer]

Work = Possibility of what can be done with Ability

OH, wait a minute... I see where you're going with that!! I stand corrected!!

Work definitely = what you potentially could get if you have ability - right?

 

[John Wentzien]

OH, wait a minute... I see where you're going with that!! I stand corrected!!

Work definitely = what you potentially could get if you have ability - right?

Exactly!

 

[stratovani]

Good stuff guys.

This has to be the best thread on the internet.

It's tough to read personality on the Internet. Always know that anything I post is done so with humility and comes from my limited understanding of music and playing. I hope I never come off as a "know it all", because I'd be the last one to admit I know anything music related.

I really enjoy the interaction.

+1. And whether we agree or not is immaterial, in my opinion. All that truly matters is if we learned something. I know I have. I only wish I could have come in sooner; as Victor Wooten says in his book The Music Lesson, "Boy, have I got a lot of work to do!".