Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[Fergie Fulton]

One thing I am noticing in your discussions, is teachers deviating from the way they were actually taught! Some of this may be the fault of various editors and publishers though.

The teachers have to because of the era we live, they have to adapt. When i was taught back in early 70s, i had my main teacher,and some other secondary tutors, and that was it. What they said was the truth because i had no other way to check it.
All the book available were music books, all the players and teachers were all musicians.
There was no internet, no mags, no video, no tapes as such just vinyl the books and the teachers.
We had no outside source to contradict what we were being taught, we learned in class and in order of information as seen to be relevant. Often if someone got slow they were separated so they did not get a musical idea or teaching they were not reafy for.
The tutor would bring them up to speed so they could rejoin the class, the tutor was only allowed to deal with what the teacher had told him to do. They would not answer questions about anything other than what they were told to do and offered no opinions on your teaching to date, it was not for them to question an others method.

Now a days this system is impossible, the freedom of information and the ideas that allow players to get ahead of themselves or try and understand ideas to soon without foundation is rife and that is a problem for players of a certain attitude.
The true musician is still there.
This influx of distracting information, and players who seek it, is a way for those who would never really have chosen music anyway, so it is their problem they create and need to solve, not an education systems one, that is why they support these ideas because they give them the quick short term fix before they move to something else.

Those that take music serious will always find away to learn correct.

 

[Eminentbass]

I don't know the answer to this either, but I'm always tinkering with my basses and have sometimes noticed perceived changes in the string tension that I can't explain. I guess in the end you got a good result, so just enjoy it?

I'm pretty stoked with it. It's now one of the nicest basses i've played although I don't have a point of reference to what a super low action is but it seems pretty low to me. I just finished a gig and it feels great.

I've owned great feeling basses that I didn't enjoy the sound of and let go of some that sounded great but just needed work. I could've saved a lot of time and money if I knew then what I know now.

 

[chadhargis]

Now a days this system is impossible, the freedom of information and the ideas that allow players to get ahead of themselves or try and understand ideas to soon without foundation is rife

Boy oh boy, I fight this daily. I have such a desire to learn and there is so much information out there it's hard to know where to start. I'm doing my level best to just follow my teachers advice and let him teach me what I need to know, but I'm guilty of "peeking ahead" a bit and wanting to be responsible for my own learning.

As far as reading is concerned, while I can't "sight read", I can match marks made on a bass clef with notes. It's not really hard. I never use the tab in books. The thing for me is, most of the time I know the song, so I end up playing it by ear except for parts where I can't find the note, then I read the music. The notes are the easy part, it's all the other marks and such that make little sense to me and while I might know what the definition of a specific mark is, unless I can hear it played correctly it doesn't really set in my head. I am very "ear" oriented. I really have to hear something to understand it. Then it makes sense to me.

The single best thing reading has done for me is help me explore the bass. Play notes on different strings and hear how they sound different even though they are the same note.

 

[Chansey]

Incidently, I went down at the Dean plant working on a new bass with them. I only own one bass guitar, and I thought to finally have at least two, maybe three.

The good thing is that they are going to sell basses designed to be like mine. The only unique thing about this bass is that it will probably feels incredible. That's it! And it is a biggie because I don't always think that many basses "feel" that good. I like low action and I don't like to work too hard to make the bass speak. I even had the idea that I would do the set-ups on any bass that anybody ordered, to make sure that it felt as close to mine as I could get. I have the time to do this right now.

P.S. This clip is where I live in the deepest part of my musical heart. If only I could exude this kind of emotion on my bass.

Will these new Dean basses still feature an active pre-amp like those on the current models? I was always wondering about that, particularly since you have always been vocal about your preference for the warmth of a totally passive electronics setup in your basses.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'm pretty stoked with it. It's now one of the nicest basses i've played although I don't have a point of reference to what a super low action is but it seems pretty low to me. I just finished a gig and it feels great.

I've owned great feeling basses that I didn't enjoy the sound of and let go of some that sounded great but just needed work. I could've saved a lot of time and money if I knew then what I know now.

If your bass feels great, then that's it. There is nothing more for you to investigate.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Will these new Dean basses still feature an active pre-amp like those on the current models? I was always wondering about that, particularly since you have always been vocal about your preference for the warmth of a totally passive electronics setup in your basses.

I don't like the sound of active basses. But, some guys like them. So, to compromise (it's a bass, not a lesson) there is a push-pull knob on the guitar that puts the bass into either passive or active mode.

I don't have one because I don't seek out any other sound than what my passive bass produces. But some guys like active and so I provided this for them as a choice.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Boy oh boy, I fight this daily. I have such a desire to learn and there is so much information out there it's hard to know where to start. I'm doing my level best to just follow my teachers advice and let him teach me what I need to know, but I'm guilty of "peeking ahead" a bit and wanting to be responsible for my own learning.

As far as reading is concerned, while I can't "sight read", I can match marks made on a bass clef with notes. It's not really hard. I never use the tab in books. The thing for me is, most of the time I know the song, so I end up playing it by ear except for parts where I can't find the note, then I read the music. The notes are the easy part, it's all the other marks and such that make little sense to me and while I might know what the definition of a specific mark is, unless I can hear it played correctly it doesn't really set in my head. I am very "ear" oriented. I really have to hear something to understand it. Then it makes sense to me.

The single best thing reading has done for me is help me explore the bass. Play notes on different strings and hear how they sound different even though they are the same note.

Keep up with your musical studies and remember that you have the next 30 years to improve your playing. Aim a little bit higher than you might be doing right now, and practice what you aim for. And NEVER lower your sites. People who do this are bringing down music in the world. Aim up and practice to obtain it.

 

[tZer]

Boy oh boy, I fight this daily. I have such a desire to learn and there is so much information out there it's hard to know where to start. I'm doing my level best to just follow my teachers advice and let him teach me what I need to know, but I'm guilty of "peeking ahead" a bit and wanting to be responsible for my own learning.

As far as reading is concerned, while I can't "sight read", I can match marks made on a bass clef with notes. It's not really hard. I never use the tab in books. The thing for me is, most of the time I know the song, so I end up playing it by ear except for parts where I can't find the note, then I read the music. The notes are the easy part, it's all the other marks and such that make little sense to me and while I might know what the definition of a specific mark is, unless I can hear it played correctly it doesn't really set in my head. I am very "ear" oriented. I really have to hear something to understand it. Then it makes sense to me.

The single best thing reading has done for me is help me explore the bass. Play notes on different strings and hear how they sound different even though they are the same note.

There can be a push-me, pull-you relationship between 'short cuts' and 'deeper education' though. It doesn't have to be one at the expense of the other.

If a simplified explanation of something allows you to execute it before your academic understanding can explain it, it could inspire you to dig more deeply to understand the fundamental principles that you are now able to demonstrate naively.

That's not a system to 'count on' with regard to this topic - but it's also not necessary to discount any method - they can all be a means to an end as long as you know the difference between a 'tactic' and the facts.

 

[chadhargis]

People who explain mediocrity will get exactly that! You don't do this, but some have!

Keep up with your musical studies and remember that you have the next 30 years to improve your playing.

We have no guarantee on tomorrow. I saw my dad laying dead on a gurney at 64. I've seen too many people put off for tomorrow what they can do today and have tomorrow never come.

I realize music is a journey. A Rush song says it best, "the point of a journey is not to arrive". To me, that's music. You never arrive at the end until you take your last breath or you give it up.

I've wanted to play all my life. I've grown up listening to my brother play and traveling with him on the road during the summers. I kick myself for not learning to play years ago, but there was always something that was more important to me. Today is no different. There are a number of things more important to me than music. But music has been a big influence in my life and has shaped who I am. I can't believe I have waited so long to dive into the very thing that's been my passion for so long. Now that I have, I want to go, go, go, go...learn as much as I can, as fast as I can, with as few setbacks as I can. I want to use the knowledge of others to guide me in the right direction.

What I'm finding is that there are a lot of people out there telling me to go a lot of different directions. Lots of information, that frankly I don't know enough about to know if it's good our bad information.

If I were 10 years old, I could relax, take my time, practice and know that by the time I was in high school, I'd be a hot shot player. When you're a kid, people will give you a shot. Help you along the way. Hold your hand and guide you. When you pushing 40, it's hard to find anyone willing to extend a hand and mentor you (unless you put money in their hand). When I was a kid, I studied computers. I had a "mentor" who saw a passion in me and he fed that passion. He's the reason I make my living on computers today. Because he shared his passion with me, for free, out of the love for our hobby. I would often spend 12 to 14 hours a day working on my computer. I've spent countless nights with little to no sleep trying to learn something I didn't know. The same exact things most of you guys did, only you did it with music. I don't see how I can ever "catch up" I don't have that time to give now.

Sometimes I feel like I blew my chance to ever become more than a "decent" player. No opportunity to study music in college. No opportunity to play in a high school garage band or jam with buddies (none of my friends play instruments). Above all, I am determined. It's been a desire of mine to learn to play. My musical journey is like flying though a fog on instruments. You have to trust what the gauges and indicators tell you even though you can't see where you are going. I'm trusting in my teacher to show me the "good stuff" 30 minutes a week. At that rate, will I die before I reach my goals? Only God knows. I'm just doing my level best to enjoy the journey.

If the funds permit, and the wife doesn't protest too much, I'll see you down at the Players School in September. Five days of nothing but learning music sounds like heaven to me. I'm looking forward to it.

I'll bring you some ribs.

 

[Eminentbass]

Sometimes I feel like I blew my chance to ever become more than a "decent" player.

I meet a lot of older guys at gigs who are campfire guitarists. Some have played for decades but haven't progressed past the handful of chords they learned from songbooks and the common phrases are "if only", "I'm not talented enough" and "I'm too old".

The thing that strikes me, even more so now thanks to this thread, is that it's never too late. With the right information and a bit of dedication progress will be quicker than most think(not the first time I've said this but it's really sunk in because I thought I'd peaked when in reality I had just become stagnant). I'm 34 and always regretted not getting my reading up to par(just to mention one of the gaps in my knowledge/skills that I'm trying to fill) but I'm now making sure I read every day, even if it's a little bit on days where time is scarce. I'm fully dedicated to getting my reading up to a good level and beyond.

The other thing that's really hit home is the fact that music is not a race. I'm not going to be a virtuoso overnight(and I'll probably never be an innovator) but I'm going to try make sure that each day I know a little bit more than I did the day before.

I'm actually seeing improvement because of some pointers on new musical content and some very valuable advice on here regarding how to practice. This almost shocks me because even though I've grown over the last few years due to experience and tons of gigs, I can't say it's been rapid and certainly not in areas of technical proficiency.

I might never be as good as *insert bass hero here* but like you, I'm having a great time learning

 

[Holdsg]

--^^^^---

Wow, really good, heartfelt sentiments in these last several postings. I also am a "late bloomer" at bass, played other instruments all my life, but always admired a good bassline. Picked up the bass at age 44, and I'm now 46, loving the new "mistress" and wondering where she will take me. Don't want to be a star, but want to have self-respect at the end of the day. Don't we all want some of that?

 

[Yools]

We have no guarantee on tomorrow. I saw my dad laying dead on a gurney at 64. I've seen too many people put off for tomorrow what they can do today and have tomorrow never come.

I realize music is a journey. A Rush song says it best, "the point of a journey is not to arrive". To me, that's music. You never arrive at the end until you take your last breath or you give it up.

I've wanted to play all my life. I've grown up listening to my brother play and traveling with him on the road during the summers. I kick myself for not learning to play years ago, but there was always something that was more important to me. Today is no different. There are a number of things more important to me than music. But music has been a big influence in my life and has shaped who I am. I can't believe I have waited so long to dive into the very thing that's been my passion for so long. Now that I have, I want to go, go, go, go...learn as much as I can, as fast as I can, with as few setbacks as I can. I want to use the knowledge of others to guide me in the right direction.

What I'm finding is that there are a lot of people out there telling me to go a lot of different directions. Lots of information, that frankly I don't know enough about to know if it's good our bad information.

If I were 10 years old, I could relax, take my time, practice and know that by the time I was in high school, I'd be a hot shot player. When you're a kid, people will give you a shot. Help you along the way. Hold your hand and guide you. When you pushing 40, it's hard to find anyone willing to extend a hand and mentor you (unless you put money in their hand). When I was a kid, I studied computers. I had a "mentor" who saw a passion in me and he fed that passion. He's the reason I make my living on computers today. Because he shared his passion with me, for free, out of the love for our hobby. I would often spend 12 to 14 hours a day working on my computer. I've spent countless nights with little to no sleep trying to learn something I didn't know. The same exact things most of you guys did, only you did it with music. I don't see how I can ever "catch up" I don't have that time to give now.

Sometimes I feel like I blew my chance to ever become more than a "decent" player. No opportunity to study music in college. No opportunity to play in a high school garage band or jam with buddies (none of my friends play instruments). Above all, I am determined. It's been a desire of mine to learn to play. My musical journey is like flying though a fog on instruments. You have to trust what the gauges and indicators tell you even though you can't see where you are going. I'm trusting in my teacher to show me the "good stuff" 30 minutes a week. At that rate, will I die before I reach my goals? Only God knows. I'm just doing my level best to enjoy the journey.

If the funds permit, and the wife doesn't protest too much, I'll see you down at the Players School in September. Five days of nothing but learning music sounds like heaven to me. I'm looking forward to it.

I'll bring you some ribs.

Chad

I would caution you against thinking that you "blew your chance"; sure, it's true that you could have been a great player by now had you started earlier, but the fact is, you didn't, and you still have a lot of time and a great opportunity to develop into a great player. Those thought are only counter-productive. You need to keep in mind what you said earlier in your post - music is a life-long journey, not a destination. Think about this: Jeff still practices on a regular basis, still talks openly about how much better he want's to be, and until the unfortunate passing of Mr. Banacos he was still receiving lessons. This make me think that, regardless of anyone's level of skill, there is always room for improvement and development. I love that part of it - learning and growing is what life is all about, and once you stop learning and growing you start to die.

If you'll indulge me I'll tell you about my experience with playing and learning. I really wanted to play a musical instrument when I was a kid, but it was actively discouraged by my family and I was told over and over again that I wasn't musically inclined and that I don't have any talent. In my early twenties, I basically gave up because I knew guys my age that started in their early teens and already had numerous band, major gigs, recordings, etc. under their belt and I thought that there was no way I could ever catch up and be a decent player (I had a lot of the feelings that you expressed in your post). Then, out of the blue my brother gave me a guitar, and I started banging around on it and trying to learn as much as I could from established players and from books. Shortly after that, I got my first bass. It took a few years before I was really able to start playing with others, but it came, and I spent the latter part of my 20s and much of my 30s playing in rock and metal bands, and I ended up becoming a very respected player within my local scene. Now I'm 42, and I want to move away from the metal and blues bands and get to the point where I can adapt to and play in any genre, and this thread has made me realize that all that I learned about music on my own over the last 20 year I could have probably learned in less than a year with a good teacher. Now I have regrets about that, but one thing I've realized is that one can make a lot of progress in a year if their efforts are focused; even more in two year. The problem with feeling like it is too late and letting that hold you back is that you'll wake up a few years from now and you're really wish that you'd started now, and at that point you will have legitimately wasted an opportunity. I see that opportunity now and I'm going to do what I can to move in that direction - using the ideas and advice I've learned in this thread - because I don't want to wake up on my 45th birthday and really feel regret.

Or to put it in more concrete terms: you're what, 3-4 years younger than me? If you continue on the path that you've already chosen, you'll be better at age 42 than I am now at age 42. I don't feel like my musical life is over; I feel like it's just starting. You've got plenty of musical life left; just try to be patient, and it will come in time.

-Y

 

[longrange]

Hi Fella's,

I'm forty and been playing 3 years and I live for it. It fills me with a sense of meaning like no other and helps me escape to somewhere totally private. My playing is (I think) pretty good and I'm progressing by the day.

I'd love to learn theory inside out but my arch enemy - time - prevents me from getting much past the basics. This leaves me with a sense of not having done things properly. This, in turn, hurts because playing is so important to me and having a good ear isn't always a blessing as I can work out in reasonably good time what I need to know at surface level. A good problem too have perhaps but a problem all the same as there is no depth to my knowledge.

Jeff speaks nothing but common sense but I can't shake that feeling of time slipping through my fingers. I 'd ask for help but I'm not sure I'd be in a position to take it.

But here goes...someone?

 

[chadhargis]

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I'm not a defeatist. I'm sickeningly positive, but also a realist. I believe having reasonable expectations allows me to develop without pushing myself too hard (as I tend to do). I also know that I want to surpass my expectations and see how far I can progress.

I'd love to learn theory inside out but my arch enemy - time - prevents me from getting much past the basics. This leaves me with a sense of not having done things properly.

This describes me to a tee.

 

[RWRLV]

It really shouldn't be a battle except that guys who support practicing with metronomes are still mostly self taught guys.

OH I agree. For sometime now starting on Myspace I read as you pleaded your case. I was just saddened to see you still at it here. If you remember my case it was high school teachers that turned me onto the idea. If I remember correctly, we had two to four classes dedicated to the subject. We were told to practice with it to improve our time.

By chance did you happen to catch my previous request after the metronome part? I found a poor fellow here on TB that could use your Chords (Tarzan) before Scales ( King Richard II) lesson. If you remember that one from MS? You know """This is the first lesson of music; Chords Rules! Scales Stink! (We need scales, just not the way that most practice them, and not right now)."" It has since turned into a few fellows.

Also since then I went looking for a quick way to explain what they would be leaving out by taking the scales route, also to show it was not based on my opinion. I found three links to syllabuses for Berklee Music Theory Classes 101, 201 & 301. The exact order of what you would learn & when. Do you think this may be a good way for a young student to have a clue of what to look for in teacher or school? A chronological list of sorts.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Hi Fella's,

I'm forty and been playing 3 years and I live for it. It fills me with a sense of meaning like no other and helps me escape to somewhere totally private. My playing is (I think) pretty good and I'm progressing by the day.

I'd love to learn theory inside out but my arch enemy - time - prevents me from getting much past the basics. This leaves me with a sense of not having done things properly. This, in turn, hurts because playing is so important to me and having a good ear isn't always a blessing as I can work out in reasonably good time what I need to know at surface level. A good problem too have perhaps but a problem all the same as there is no depth to my knowledge.

Jeff speaks nothing but common sense but I can't shake that feeling of time slipping through my fingers. I 'd ask for help but I'm not sure I'd be in a position to take it.

But here goes...someone?

if you ride the train to work you could use that time to read the theory books.....if you walk you can say the chord tones and inversions in your head.....if you have a job where its practical to play on breaks,a cheapo bass taken to/left at work......i used to transcribe dots from tab in my down time

 

[somedumbguy]

No need to feel like an idiot over that.

However, without trying to put you down sounding like an egotistical jerk, I must say that if you have only been playing bass for two years, I highly doubt you are truly the best bassist you know in this area. I live here as well and have been playing for 30+ years and know four guys that are great players who know a thing or two about what has been said here. I just met another guy who moved to town a month ago who has quite a resume as far as who he has played with. They are here, you just dont know them my friend. Peace.

That's some pretty active hate going on. If I ever gave the wrong impression about my abilities, I apologize.

What I wanted to have conveyed is that I am the "best" within my large circle of musician friends. And I can no longer "learn new things" from them with regards to bass playing.

Also, with regards the the bolded portion of your quote, I don't pay much attention to the local music scene, I really haven't met any bass players better than me, and I don't mean that to "say how good I am" but rather, I don't have any more people that can "show me some new stuff."

 

[tZer]

if you ride the train to work you could use that time to read the theory books.....if you walk you can say the chord tones and inversions in your head.....if you have a job where its practical to play on breaks,a cheapo bass taken to/left at work......i used to transcribe dots from tab in my down time

That's the great thing about studying theory, much of it can be done in waiting rooms, boring meetings and other places where you can't play an instrument.

@longrange - I agree. Even though my career is non-musical, music is the biggest and most important thing in my life (outside of family, of course). This thread and TB in general are significant in reigniting and focusing me in the last few years but it's always been there for me. Music is rewarding on so many levels I can't begin to describe them all but suffice it to say there are far worse ways to spend your energy.

Along with the obvious pleasure derived from playing and composing, studying theory is very rewarding and fulfilling. It's amazing to think something I've been doing for over 35 years still feels fresh and alive and shows no signs of ever getting old.

 

[Busc]

That's some pretty active hate going on. If I ever gave the wrong impression about my abilities, I apologize.

What I wanted to have conveyed is that I am the "best" within my large circle of musician friends. And I can no longer "learn new things" from them with regards to bass playing.

Also, with regards the the bolded portion of your quote, I don't pay much attention to the local music scene, I really haven't met any bass players better than me, and I don't mean that to "say how good I am" but rather, I don't have any more people that can "show me some new stuff."

Dude I am not hating at all, I just thought you meant noone in this area could teach you anything. I misunderstood.

I truly believe you when you say you are better than your friends and probably cant get much more from them. If that is the case and you truly want to get better on the instrument, then you probably SHOULD pay attention to the local music scene and find out who is out there. If you want to get better as a musician then it would be in your best interest to investigate/get to know the area's better players. If it doesnt matter that much to you, then forget everything I said. JMO.

 

[Jim Campbell]

That's some pretty active hate going on. If I ever gave the wrong impression about my abilities, I apologize.

What I wanted to have conveyed is that I am the "best" within my large circle of musician friends. And I can no longer "learn new things" from them with regards to bass playing.

Also, with regards the the bolded portion of your quote, I don't pay much attention to the local music scene, I really haven't met any bass players better than me, and I don't mean that to "say how good I am" but rather, I don't have any more people that can "show me some new stuff."

nothing wrong with looking for new challenges,and getting together to play with the pals too.....