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Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3
- Thread starter john turner
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sedgwic - Jeff! I think you unknowingly made your own point! Berklee's on-line courses are all $1,000+ 12 week courses full of the exact curiculum you advise we stay away from. They have a Rock Bass course analyzing Rush lines, a Slap Bass course, a Bass Performance course with lessons on working with a metronome and analyzing Jimi Hendrix lines.
Jeff - Total crap! I cannot believe that the alma mater that spawned some of the greatest musicians who ever lived subscribes to lessons like these!
sedgwic - Now, the other poster was refering to their theory courses so I may have dragged off topic a bit and in fairness to Berklee I haven't taken any of their courses so they may be fine, but on paper many of their courses don't look to be of "the right stuff".
Jeff - No matter who teaches, be it famous musician or not, or famous school or not, or famous on-line lessons or not; if they don't teach you content, then you are paying for fluff. The reason that Berklee might be teaching these things is frankly the fault of most players. They are the ones who seek out these B.S. lessons and Berklee simply decided to give the public what it was asking for.
sedgwic -See how hard it is for us guys trying to improve when a legendary school like Berklee doesn't seen to offer the right stuff and most of the avenues we look to for help are on the other bandwagon. Tough stuff brother Jeff!!! Keep preachin' it!!!
Jeff - I have to! There are still outlets that make music its primary contribution! Wherever you are, and with whoever you can find, if this source is Music First, then you should be in good hands. If musical content isn't first and foremost in the material that you are paying to learn, then you have just thrown your money away. Sorry, but it is true! And it breaks my heart to hear that the school that set me on the musical path that I now walk may have veered from the path that it once pioneered.
Jeff - Total crap! I cannot believe that the alma mater that spawned some of the greatest musicians who ever lived subscribes to lessons like these!
sedgwic - Now, the other poster was refering to their theory courses so I may have dragged off topic a bit and in fairness to Berklee I haven't taken any of their courses so they may be fine, but on paper many of their courses don't look to be of "the right stuff".
Jeff - No matter who teaches, be it famous musician or not, or famous school or not, or famous on-line lessons or not; if they don't teach you content, then you are paying for fluff. The reason that Berklee might be teaching these things is frankly the fault of most players. They are the ones who seek out these B.S. lessons and Berklee simply decided to give the public what it was asking for.
sedgwic -See how hard it is for us guys trying to improve when a legendary school like Berklee doesn't seen to offer the right stuff and most of the avenues we look to for help are on the other bandwagon. Tough stuff brother Jeff!!! Keep preachin' it!!!
Jeff - I have to! There are still outlets that make music its primary contribution! Wherever you are, and with whoever you can find, if this source is Music First, then you should be in good hands. If musical content isn't first and foremost in the material that you are paying to learn, then you have just thrown your money away. Sorry, but it is true! And it breaks my heart to hear that the school that set me on the musical path that I now walk may have veered from the path that it once pioneered.
I really need to learn how to transcribe. Another Google search for a method.
Don't try to transcribe. You aren't ready for this yet! But you can imitate what you hear on recordings. This is ear training.
This is pretty right on! Plus, people today aren't interested in music anymore! They are interested in music entertainment. Many of the music events and lessons that people pay to learn from show this. Much of music and much of music lessons are entertaining, period! People like entertainment but don't like truth nor content sometimes. And the truth is, much of what people learn and much of what people listen to is as musically meaningful as professional wrestling is a meaningful sport!
To be clear - or to put a point on the table for clarification;
While I've always thought 'transcribing' was 'listening to, then writing music' - apparently it's commonly used to mean that as well as 'listening to, then playing music' or what I've always thought of as 'learning by ear' - and not 'transcribing'.
Rightfully or wrongfully so - people will say they are 'transcribing' a song when they are learning it by ear. I was on the DB side reading a thread and was confused by they way the word 'transcribe' was being used. I asked and was told that many call learning by ear 'transcribing' too...
Personally, I think that's an improper usage - if anything, because the word has 'scribe' in it... The only reason I bring that up is because it is apparently understood to mean more than one thing and we should probably clarify it's definition in the context of this thread to avoid confusion.
While I've always thought 'transcribing' was 'listening to, then writing music' - apparently it's commonly used to mean that as well as 'listening to, then playing music' or what I've always thought of as 'learning by ear' - and not 'transcribing'.
Rightfully or wrongfully so - people will say they are 'transcribing' a song when they are learning it by ear. I was on the DB side reading a thread and was confused by they way the word 'transcribe' was being used. I asked and was told that many call learning by ear 'transcribing' too...
Personally, I think that's an improper usage - if anything, because the word has 'scribe' in it... The only reason I bring that up is because it is apparently understood to mean more than one thing and we should probably clarify it's definition in the context of this thread to avoid confusion.
Transcribing is a term for written music taken from something that one has listened to.
Listening to recordings and imitating what one hears, is, well, listening to recordings and imitating what one hears!
That's how I understand it too. I just wanted to make it clear that many use the term loosely and many accept it equally loosely.
Whew! Well, it's nice to know that I'm not ready for it because I haven't a clue as to how to do it.
As it stands now, I can listen to a song with a simple bass part and play along. Not note for note in most cases, but playing root notes or root-V, root-IV, etc.
For Chad - Can I ask how many quality hours you get a week to practise/learn?
I get between 7-9 hours a week on average.
I have 1.5 hours of practice scheduled on weekdays and 3 to 4 hours each weekend day. That equals about 10 hours a week give or take. There are days when I can't put in that much time, and there are days when I put in more.
My time includes working on exercises, reading, and ear training (mostly by playing along with songs). How I break it up depends on how brain dead I am from the work day. If I'm brain fried, there is nothing better than just playing songs. It's like I go to another place. I put on a song, and do my best to play along. Sometimes I record it, even if it sounds bad, I listen to my playing versus the player on the song. It's typically pretty ugly. Here's a sample:
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I have my bass turned up real hot so I can hear it over the actual player, and at times the "real" bass player's line deviates from mine and it sounds really bad. Lots of mistakes. Lots of out of time events. But it's a great learning tool. Nothing reveals your mistakes like listening to a recording. The night I recorded this, I don't think I worked on anything. It had been a really hard day at work, and I needed mental therapy alone time with my bass.
I find that after a day at work I'm too fried to do myself justice. Fortunately I'm in a job that allows me to have quite a lot of time away from it.
I've been playing three years and am now starting to make real progress. I'm currently at a level that enables me to play, for example, 'Portrait of Tracy' and 'Continuum' - both, of course, by Jaco, to a reasonable standard. I don't 'own' the lines yet but at times I'm close and getting closer by the week. I play fretless only as it makes my heart soar to hear it.
I had lessons for a few months - my technique was apparently good as was my ear. I picked up the basics - scales, beginners sight reading etc easily enough but I never felt that the lessons were structured enough - one week rock'n'roll (not my thing at all) next week slap etc.
I drift in and out of using theory as Iwant to spend my time playing but i know this needs addressing and soon.
I've moved away from playing along with tracks quite so much. I now play along 'til I have it then practise without metronome but sometimes with drum machine or jazzbacks.
You seem to share the passion as i do. The best, isn't it???
It is indeed.
It's all I've known my whole life. Music has been there for me. Lifted me when I was down, focused me when I worked, lulled me to sleep at night. My life is complete with a sound track. I can tell you what song was playing on the radio during specific events in my life. Such as my sisters high school graduation. She got a car for a graduation gift and I rode home with her. When we got in the brown Ford Maverick and started it up, "Moonlight" by Starbuck was on the radio. The year, 1976. I was 4 years old. One of my earliest memories.
At work I have an XM radio on my desk. Sirius in my car. Nearly 6000 songs on my iPod.
My listening preference runs from bluegrass to jazz and everything in between (though I admit, I don't like opera or real intense heavy metal).
To put it mildly, I'm a music lover. The fact that I haven't picked up an instrument in a serious attempt to learn to play until a couple of months ago is beyond me. I'm very upset with myself that I've lost years of playing, but the past is the past. I have today, and I'm making the best of it.
I figure you're around three years younger than me so we started playing at the same age. I kick myself to this day but as you say, I'm playing now and I've got a good few years left in me yet...
This doesn't help take away the feeling of time slipping through my fingers - i know we've touched on this before. I guess this is why I'm drawn to this thread - i can play this or that and feel impressed with myself for a while but then my conscience reminds me that whilst it sounded good enough, i couldn't explain too much about why whatever piece it is works. An education is, to be frank, badly needed. I've started looking for a tutor on Jeff's advice - identified one in particular so I'll check him out and bring his comments to this thread for a credential check (without naming or dropping any clues about his ID).
What's your bass?
I'm a huge "logic" guy. I HAVE to know why something is the way it is. I am enjoying learning about music, but much of it is simply over my head at this point in my journey.
I had a lesson last night, and I can't emphasize enough the value of a good teacher. He showed me what I'll be able to do when I become proficient with what he's wanting me to learn, and it's amazing. I'm really not that far away from doing some really good stuff, I just have to keep working at it.
My bass is an Ibanez BTB 1305e. I've only seen one other like it for sale, and that's here:
http://www.theperfectbass.com/explo...103200101&W=STORE&P=N&S=1001081&U=1&SS=1&CR=Y
I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I bought mine used and didn't pay a bunch for it.
Here's my rig, and where I do all my practicing. I moved my chair and music stand out of the way, but I spend a lot of time here:
Amen!
I try to focus on what I can do in the future versus what I didn't do in the past.
But sometimes I do think about how far I'd come if I'd have started earlier. It's human nature.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
Hi guys,
I'm trying something with my Bass Majors over Spring Break. I took only TWO of Jeff's patterns from his Beyond Chops Column in Bass Player of August 1998 "Wake Up Call" (Thanks Commreman!)
Here's what they are doing:
We took 3-5-7-R and 5-7-R-3 and we're all playing them out of time over one of the following 3 tunes:
Autumn Leaves
All The Things You Are
Stella By Starlight
On Autumn Leaves the chords are:
Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 etc.
So the 3-5-7-R and 5-7-R-3 is:
(Am7) C-E-G-A (D7) A-C-D-F#(Gmaj7) B-D-F#-G (Cmaj7) G-B-C-E etc.
If you take each consecutive pair of chord tone groups there is about 5 years of work just on one Jazz Standard. I chose Standard Tunes because that's the likely vehicle they'll be dealing with. The object is not to play these studies in Performance through the Standard, but to increase harmonic awareness and feed the student's subconscious with how this all sounds.
So far, everyone's really motivated with this and we'll see what transpires in their playing.
I'm trying something with my Bass Majors over Spring Break. I took only TWO of Jeff's patterns from his Beyond Chops Column in Bass Player of August 1998 "Wake Up Call" (Thanks Commreman!
)Here's what they are doing:
We took 3-5-7-R and 5-7-R-3 and we're all playing them out of time over one of the following 3 tunes:
Autumn Leaves
All The Things You Are
Stella By Starlight
On Autumn Leaves the chords are:
Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 etc.
So the 3-5-7-R and 5-7-R-3 is:
(Am7) C-E-G-A (D7) A-C-D-F#(Gmaj7) B-D-F#-G (Cmaj7) G-B-C-E etc.
If you take each consecutive pair of chord tone groups there is about 5 years of work just on one Jazz Standard. I chose Standard Tunes because that's the likely vehicle they'll be dealing with. The object is not to play these studies in Performance through the Standard, but to increase harmonic awareness and feed the student's subconscious with how this all sounds.
So far, everyone's really motivated with this and we'll see what transpires in their playing.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I'm a huge "logic" guy. I HAVE to know why something is the way it is. I am enjoying learning about music, but much of it is simply over my head at this point in my journey.
I had a lesson last night, and I can't emphasize enough the value of a good teacher. He showed me what I'll be able to do when I become proficient with what he's wanting me to learn, and it's amazing. I'm really not that far away from doing some really good stuff, I just have to keep working at it.
My bass is an Ibanez BTB 1305e. I've only seen one other like it for sale, and that's here:
http://www.theperfectbass.com/explo...103200101&W=STORE&P=N&S=1001081&U=1&SS=1&CR=Y
I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I bought mine used and didn't pay a bunch for it.
Here's my rig, and where I do all my practicing. I moved my chair and music stand out of the way, but I spend a lot of time here:
Cool! It's great to have a designated practice space.
It makes practicing a Special Occasion.- Status
