Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[Phil Smith]

Being an uber geek extraordinaire, there is indeed a computer connected to those monitors.

I'll give Band in a Box a look see. Sounds very very cool.

You can also try Invalid Link Removed, it's free, allows you to transpose to any key and has a playback applet that you can play along with.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Huge BIAB fan here, too! Once you spend a little on the "real drummer" sets, the experience gets even better. Works really well for composition, too, if you're a hack piano player like me...

The new one has all "real players". I need to upgrade. The "real drummer" loops make a world of difference.
I demoed all of my tunes for TMBG and my last CD on BIAB before I handed them out at rehearsal to the players. Great tool!

 

[Roy Vogt]

You can also try Invalid Link Removed, it's free, allows you to transpose to any key and has a playback applet that you can play along with.

Thanks for the lead on this-I had totally forgot about that!
It's amazing how much we have in common when we're not fussing back and forth about Tal .....

 

[sedgwick1489]

+1 for Band in a Box. It's great for looping jazz standards and practicing improvisation.

 

[bassy7]

Roy ---"The one Funky note in all of this is a regular 4 or 11 against a major 3rd-it can be a real Ear-bender....That's why a lot of players like the Lydian sound against a Major 7 chord due to the #11 giving a little more space. The 11 is not so problematic against a Minor sound."

I just found the Nov. 2004 issue of BP this morning! In it is Adam Nitti's Part 2 of chordal improvisation. He says the exact same thing you do. That to avoid the tension cause by the 4th- that most jazzers will treat the major7 as the 4th degree of Ionian. So you use the Lydian structure for improvising in this scenario, as it has a #4 which give more space to the 3 of the maj7.


Following the logic of this improv. method....
What problems (if any) are caused by using the Phrygian or Aeolian over a maj7, as opposed to Dorian?

How about using Locrian over a min7b5 chord?

This stuff is really a break through finding for. My thinking has always been along the lines of- "what sort of scale or notes (even if I didn't know its name I could find the notes by ear) works over this chord". However, I found it hard to keep the music moving within a static chord part of jam. It just sounded like I was playing within the chord/scale. This approach really expands on that and helps to open up more color choices.


Roy- I am playing these exercises over top of static keyboard chords I've recorded on my old digi multitracker. Its very a good learning tool. The Band In a Box is very appealing to me- especially since I just got a Real Book. I really don't know any jazzers- and it would be nice to play along with songs that I don't have to lay down tracks for every time. You mention that without the framing we just sheetrock. Is that static chord I am playing over enough to qualify as the framing, i.e. enough to give me free range on the chordal approach to playing? Or when "trying" to improvise would I need to make sure I frequently revisit the note that make up the "home base chord"?


thanks for the help everyone!

 

[bassy7]

On a more simple level....
When someone "says this Minor"--- do they typically mean Melodic minor (ascending) or melodic minor (descending), or harmonic minor?
Which is most common if any in rock or jazz?

I've never really heard an explanation as to why there is an "ascending" and "descending" melodic minor-- and if there are any clearcut rules that disctate when one is used over another.

 

[Roy Vogt]

On a more simple level....
When someone "says this Minor"--- do they typically mean Melodic minor (ascending) or melodic minor (descending), or harmonic minor?
Which is most common if any in rock or jazz?

I've never really heard an explanation as to why there is an "ascending" and "descending" melodic minor-- and if there are any clearcut rules that disctate when one is used over another.

In Jazz you generally only use the ascending form of Melodic Minor with the raised 6 and 7s. The ascending and descending Melodic Minors are used in Classical Music and were a Baroque/Common Practice device used for a V-i cadence. If you're in Am the E7 (V7) chord requires a G# so that's why Melodic and Harmonic Minor both have raised 7ths.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Roy ---"The one Funky note in all of this is a regular 4 or 11 against a major 3rd-it can be a real Ear-bender....That's why a lot of players like the Lydian sound against a Major 7 chord due to the #11 giving a little more space. The 11 is not so problematic against a Minor sound."

I just found the Nov. 2004 issue of BP this morning! In it is Adam Nitti's Part 2 of chordal improvisation. He says the exact same thing you do. That to avoid the tension cause by the 4th- that most jazzers will treat the major7 as the 4th degree of Ionian. So you use the Lydian structure for improvising in this scenario, as it has a #4 which give more space to the 3 of the maj7.


Following the logic of this improv. method....
What problems (if any) are caused by using the Phrygian or Aeolian over a maj7, as opposed to Dorian?

How about using Locrian over a min7b5 chord?

This stuff is really a break through finding for. My thinking has always been along the lines of- "what sort of scale or notes (even if I didn't know its name I could find the notes by ear) works over this chord". However, I found it hard to keep the music moving within a static chord part of jam. It just sounded like I was playing within the chord/scale. This approach really expands on that and helps to open up more color choices.


Roy- I am playing these exercises over top of static keyboard chords I've recorded on my old digi multitracker. Its very a good learning tool. The Band In a Box is very appealing to me- especially since I just got a Real Book. I really don't know any jazzers- and it would be nice to play along with songs that I don't have to lay down tracks for every time. You mention that without the framing we just sheetrock. Is that static chord I am playing over enough to qualify as the framing, i.e. enough to give me free range on the chordal approach to playing? Or when "trying" to improvise would I need to make sure I frequently revisit the note that make up the "home base chord"?


thanks for the help everyone!

Your ear should tell you when to come home to the chord tones (which may not include too many roots unless you're playing a bass line).
A lot of players prefer the locrian #2 because it yields at 9 instead of a flat 9. Over an Am7b5 it would be A-B-C-D-Eb-F-G-A

 

[Roy Vogt]

Following the logic of this improv. method....
What problems (if any) are caused by using the Phrygian or Aeolian over a maj7, as opposed to Dorian?

How about using Locrian over a min7b5 chord?

None, really as long as you remember to use the right Aeolian (G Aeolian in Bb) or Phrygian (D Phrygian in Bb).
Remember, all of this is based on using the Modes generated by the Major Scale and the Diatonic Chords. There are other ways to do this, of course. This is why Jeff advocates more chord tone study rather than modal study at first, IMO. It's just too easy to go down the Rabbit Hole with scales and modes, as you're probably finding out.....

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Remember, all of this is based on using the Modes generated by the Major Scale and the Diatonic Chords. There are other ways to do this, of course. This is why Jeff advocates more chord tone study rather than modal study at first, IMO. It's just too easy to go down the Rabbit Hole with scales and modes, as you're probably finding out.....

If i were to write a book on music, Modes would be on the last page, a twist in the plot, related to all that has just been read.

 

[bassy7]

You and Jeff are right. It is crucial to know the chord tones before getting into the use of modes.

I took probably a couple dozen or so lessons when I was first starting on bass at age 12-- about 18 years ago. Sort of learned enough to get going. My teacher tried to explain the circle of fifths and such, but he was throwing things out there that were way over my head. Either he was doing something wrong--- or it was me. I stopped the lessons when i felt I wasn't getting anything out of them. It turned into me bringing in songs, he would listen and help me figure them out. I eventually realized I could do this on my own. At this point I knew major and minor scales, and how progressions worked.

I've put in tons of playing and jamming hours since then, and was actively gigging for many years. In High school I faked my way thru 3 years of Orchestra, as I never took lessons in school, couldn't sight read and didn't know anything about DB technique. EDIT- just remembered I did take a music theory class in High School- the band teacher pretty much left us on our own to "learn" with some crappy old computer software while he tended to things more important than us. I didn't learn crap in that class.

Of course during all this time I figured out what chord tones are by ear. I knew the R,3,5 seemed to have more weight/strength in the character of a chord than any other scale degree.
So by ear, or by being told what the chords are I didn't have any problems playing "the right notes". On occasion I would be surprised when something like the 7th of a major scale wouldn't fit over a major chord- so I would ask "What notes are in that major chord you are playing". After being told I would realize "oh its major chord but the 7th is flat for some reason". I knew how to accomodate that.

So I've got a lot of the chord tone knowledge through experience, now I am just trying to make sure I know all of the names of the notes I am playing while I am playing them. Not just their relationship to the Root note (which I always know). I'm backing up and seeing how what I already know fits into music theory. The theory part is helping me tie my pre-existing knowledge back together into something more cohesive and meaningful.

I personally think I am ready for studying modes and what their place in music theory is. Based on what I've told you guys- would you agree?

Ryan

 

[Roy Vogt]

You and Jeff are right. It is crucial to know the chord tones before getting into the use of modes.

I took probably a couple dozen or so lessons when I was first starting on bass at age 12-- about 18 years ago. Sort of learned enough to get going. My teacher tried to explain the circle of fifths and such, but he was throwing things out there that were way over my head. Either he was doing something wrong--- or it was me. I stopped the lessons when i felt I wasn't getting anything out of them. It turned into me bringing in songs, he would listen and help me figure them out. I eventually realized I could do this on my own. At this point I knew major and minor scales, and how progressions worked.

I've put in tons of playing and jamming hours since then, and was actively gigging for many years. In High school I faked my way thru 3 years of Orchestra, as I never took lessons in school, couldn't sight read and didn't know anything about DB technique. EDIT- just remembered I did take a music theory class in High School- the band teacher pretty much left us on our own to "learn" with some crappy old computer software while he tended to things more important than us. I didn't learn crap in that class.

Of course during all this time I figured out what chord tones are by ear. I knew the R,3,5 seemed to have more weight/strength in the character of a chord than any other scale degree.
So by ear, or by being told what the chords are I didn't have any problems playing "the right notes". On occasion I would be surprised when something like the 7th of a major scale wouldn't fit over a major chord- so I would ask "What notes are in that major chord you are playing". After being told I would realize "oh its major chord but the 7th is flat for some reason". I knew how to accomodate that.

So I've got a lot of the chord tone knowledge through experience, now I am just trying to make sure I know all of the names of the notes I am playing while I am playing them. Not just their relationship to the Root note (which I always know). I'm backing up and seeing how what I already know fits into music theory. The theory part is helping me tie my pre-existing knowledge back together into something more cohesive and meaningful.

I personally think I am ready for studying modes and what their place in music theory is. Based on what I've told you guys- would you agree?

Ryan

You're probably good to go. I would recommend you take any mode and pull the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th out of it and that will give you the chord tones for the mode.
A good first place to start is www.jazzbooks.com Download Jamey Aebersold's free pdf book that matches chords to scales and gives you some simple patterns to get you going. Have fun!
Here's Jamey's Handbook:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Billnc]

Forgive me if I'm repeating something I said previously, that I found useful when I learned the modes. My teacher would have me play 1 3 5 7 then add only the 9th, then back to the chord tones, then only the 11th then back to chord tones then only the 13th. Of course there were plenty of other exercises but I found this particularly useful.

I think you 've said this before Roy, and it's another one he had me do, do the different modes in C so you can really hear the quality.

 

[Phil Smith]

Thanks for the lead on this-I had totally forgot about that!
It's amazing how much we have in common when we're not fussing back and forth about Tal .....

He he he!

 

[Eminentbass]

So, Roy, I have you to thank for my introduction into jazz composition. I was trying out your out of time chord tone exercise with Autumn Leaves, stella, etc and unwittingly stumbled onto a melody that just took off. Now I'm learning the lesson that composition takes ten seconds of inspiration that leads to about ten hours of hard work.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

So, Roy, I have you to thank for my introduction into jazz composition. I was trying out your out of time chord tone exercise with Autumn Leaves, stella, etc and unwittingly stumbled onto a melody that just took off. Now I'm learning the lesson that composition takes ten seconds of inspiration that leads to about ten hours of hard work.

Development always leads to knowledge, but knowledge does not always lead to development...as you have just learned LOL

 

[Eminentbass]

Development always leads to knowledge, but knowledge does not always lead to development...as you have just learned LOL

haha, it now looks like I'm going to have to do the out of time chord tone exercise with my own composition because I have no idea how to solo over my own very non-diatonic chord progression

 

[Fergie Fulton]

haha, it now looks like I'm going to have to do the out of time chord tone exercise with my own composition because I have no idea how to solo over my own very non-diatonic chord progression

Of course you will and that development will lead to more understanding of what you what to hear and that will lead to more knowledge. many players know what they want to hear but can't play it. This is just purely the ability to represent it, not the ability of learning it, working it out or even coming up with the idea in the first place. Its just the ability to represent it in an form that is straightforward.
Everyone has been asked a question at somepoint, stumbled over a convoluted long, exasparating explanation that misses the point. When told the answer they then say "oh i knew that" only to be told "well why didn't you say that"? Same situation, we know the answer but for some reason we cannot represent it and in music that happens alot, thats the basis of "feel", or natural ability.

 

[longrange]

Ha Ha!! Forty years old and about to undertake lessons with a renowned jazzer and it's all because of this thread!! Never too old to learn, I guess.

Took our time and discussed what can be done for me. Hope this works out...

 

[chadhargis]

I've always known I was strange in other areas of my life, but learned yesterday that I'm just as strange in music.

I was talking with a bass playing friend of mine who has played professionally for a number of years. I told him I was learning to play and taking lessons. He asked what I was learning and when I said, "scale modes, fingering, and when I have that down, chords" he said, "Why?". I told him, "so I can learn to play". He says, "Is your instructor teaching you songs? Are you playing with a metronome?". I said that I wasn't learning any songs right now, just scale modes. He says, "Damn, why do these people want to take all the fun out of music and make it boring?".

Funny, I've never been bored. I told him that my teacher is a great player, and hopefully I'll get to where I can do some improv and such and he said, "Oh man, I hate those guys. If you wanna do that, learn to play the guitar".

Humm....this is coming from a BASS player?? I was a little shocked. He plays lots of other instruments, 8 I believe, and is currently learning drums.

I think I'd rather be REALLY, REALLY good at one instrument than just "having fun" on eight. To me, being better than average is fun. The hard work to get there is fun. Looking back and seeing how far you've come is fun. Looking forward and seeing how far you have to go is fun.

I may never play in a band, have a regular gig, or make a red cent playing, but learning to play is fun. Learning music is fun.

Maybe I'm just strange when it comes to music.