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Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

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#941
I have not once been bored with a lesson teaching that stuff. This makes me wonder, how can a musician find music boring? Ask him that. It's like a physicist finding calculus boring, a doctor finding anatomy boring or a BBQ chef finding sauce recipes and fire boring. I'm sure you realize by now you can teach yourself the songs!
 
#942
chadhargis said:
I've always known I was strange in other areas of my life, but learned yesterday that I'm just as strange in music.

I was talking with a bass playing friend of mine who has played professionally for a number of years. I told him I was learning to play and taking lessons. He asked what I was learning and when I said, "scale modes, fingering, and when I have that down, chords" he said, "Why?". I told him, "so I can learn to play". He says, "Is your instructor teaching you songs? Are you playing with a metronome?". I said that I wasn't learning any songs right now, just scale modes. He says, "Damn, why do these people want to take all the fun out of music and make it boring?".

Funny, I've never been bored. I told him that my teacher is a great player, and hopefully I'll get to where I can do some improv and such and he said, "Oh man, I hate those guys. If you wanna do that, learn to play the guitar".

Humm....this is coming from a BASS player?? I was a little shocked. He plays lots of other instruments, 8 I believe, and is currently learning drums.

I think I'd rather be REALLY, REALLY good at one instrument than just "having fun" on eight. To me, being better than average is fun. The hard work to get there is fun. Looking back and seeing how far you've come is fun. Looking forward and seeing how far you have to go is fun.

I may never play in a band, have a regular gig, or make a red cent playing, but learning to play is fun. Learning music is fun.

Maybe I'm just strange when it comes to music.
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You know its funny, I have played bass for 35 years and after my second year of playing the instrument, I aspired to not only accompany other players as part of the rhythm section (the term players that cant/dont solo use for this is a "groove guy") but I also aspired to be as good a soloist as Charlie Parker or George Benson but be able to do it on the bass. I have worked a lifetime on the latter and it has what has made me a better "groove guy" because if I play chorus after chorus after chorus of backing someone up, my soloing vocabulary helps me create bass lines that arent the same thing chorus after chorus after chorus for 2/3 soloists.

I have also found in 35 years of playing music, the only guys who critique "soloists" on this instrument are guys that simply cant do it themselves. They know it is a LOT of work that they are quite frankly too lazy to do so they do the next easiest thing - convince themsleves it is not musical/applicable for this instrument.

Something else I have noticed is that bass players who critique/rip on solists with the ability, technique and vocablulary to be able to play fast,notey bop lines at a bright tempo are the guys that cant play that way themselves. They often use the terms it was "all chops" and "non melodic". I have seen that the people who say those types of things are players that just cant do it themselves.

Although we arent as critical of each others as guitar players and drummers (God help those guys when they play in front of their comrades) sometimes bass players can have some vastly different opinions of what is musical or not.

As far as learning other instruments, I think it is okay if you have the desire,time, and energy to do it. Although I love the bass the most, IMO the piano is the ultimate instrument. It can do it all. I think by also playing piano, it has (in a round about way) helped me on bass especially when you talk about knowing chord tones/substitutions and such and I am NOT by any stretch of the imagination a bonafide "keyboard player". I spend way more of my practice time practicing bass, but I also go to the piano/keyboard a couple times a week mostly because I love the instrument.

But I will say this, if you are just starting out, stick to what you love the most and your time permits which is obviously the bass.It sounds to me like you are doing it right - learning real music and having fun all the while. That spells success IMO.
 
#943
chadhargis said:
I was talking with a bass playing friend of mine who has played professionally for a number of years. I told him I was learning to play and taking lessons. He asked what I was learning and when I said, "scale modes, fingering, and when I have that down, chords" he said, "Why?". I told him, "so I can learn to play". He says, "Is your instructor teaching you songs? Are you playing with a metronome?". I said that I wasn't learning any songs right now, just scale modes. He says, "Damn, why do these people want to take all the fun out of music and make it boring?".

Funny, I've never been bored. I told him that my teacher is a great player, and hopefully I'll get to where I can do some improv and such and he said, "Oh man, I hate those guys. If you wanna do that, learn to play the guitar".

Humm....this is coming from a BASS player?? I was a little shocked. He plays lots of other instruments, 8 I believe, and is currently learning drums.
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I wouldn't worry about it, Chad. Remember we live in Nashville where there is a certain contingent of "I don't read enough to hurt my playin'" that's alive and well.
Your friend may be saying "I'm just going to function as a meat and potatoes Country/CCM/Rock Player and really work on my Songwriting, Producing, Singing, Whatever." Nothing wrong with that at all-it's a totally different discipline to sit in a room with people and write hundreds of bad songs before you get that Good One or put yourself through the gauntlet of Writer's Nights, NSAI Networking, and finding all the charming and folksy ways that Nashville folks can say "No" ;).
It's not bass playing the way I want to pursue it, but that's cool. The drag is when the tours dry up, the Rock Band doesn't get a deal, and you find yourself phased out of what you thought would be a permanent Career Track by younger, cheaper, and more eager players. I've had a lot of guys come to me for lessons or advice at that stage of their careers and it can be a little sad. I'm happy I learned all this stuff on the front end so I can play as plain or fancy as I like.
 
#944
One more thing that people have eluded to on this thread but it got a little overshadowed (by very important stuff I should add) is that although we know learning the "good stuff" is imperative to become a better musician and should take most of your time (the meat and potatoes) dont forget to let yourself just play along and emulate the players/music you enjoy for fun (the desert). That is probably what drew you to music and the instrument in the first place.I learned to read music at an early age (piano lessons - I hated it then but love it now and it was invaluable) but relied on my ear as well to learn the pop music I liked and the players I liked. It was done all by ear which helped me learn the instrument as well as written music. I think it is important for bass players to be able to do both. JMO.
 
#945
Busc said:
One more thing that people have eluded to on this thread but it got a little overshadowed (by very important stuff I should add) is that although we know learning the "good stuff" is imperative to become a better musician and should take most of your time (the meat and potatoes) dont forget to let yourself just play along and emulate the players/music you enjoy for fun (the desert). That is probably what drew you to music and the instrument in the first place.I learned to read music at an early age (piano lessons - I hated it then but love it now and it was invaluable) but relied on my ear as well to learn the pop music I liked and the players I liked. It was done all by ear which helped me learn the instrument as well as written music. I think it is important for bass players to be able to do both. JMO.
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+1 Don't forget to have fun....:D
 
#946
Roy, you're right.

I decided to learn to play the bass because I love it. I've always loved it. Starting from scratch with no experience I could have chosen to play piano, guitar, drums.....whatever. But I wanted to play bass. I really want to learn to play really well. I know full well that most any gig I ever have will be me as the side man laying down the groove. I'm fine with that, but having more tools in your tool box than you think you might need is never a bad thing. On the other hand, not having a tool when you need it leaves the job undone.

If I can get to the point where I can play really well, and no one ever hears me play but me, I'm fine with that too. When I do something, I go all out.

The strange thing that I've discovered is that I know how to do things that I've never practiced or been taught. I'll be noodling around playing along with songs and find that I hit the right notes and I'm thinking, "Wow, how'd I know how to do that?".

I think that's a byproduct of the "good stuff". My ears hear, my brain files it away, and it comes out when I need it. Just like Jeff says, there is no need to memorize things, just practice and the results will reveal themselves when it's time.
 
#947
Wow Chad even at you age there is still a "peer pressure" about education.LOL Your friend, though good intentioned, has went his path, so you go yours, because you have to justify it to yourself and now one else.
Your example is pretty much i would say, a good example of young players and kids at school get from those around them, that influence to "go with the flow" and fit in. The best players i have worked with are those that play for themselves, and if others like it all the better. If they don't, then thanks for listening go and enjoy what you want to hear from someone else. IMO stay on the road your on and as said have fun and enjoy the experience of playing.:)
 
#948
I wouldn't so much call it peer pressure. Instead, it's more a debate of how a bass should be used. Like Roy said, some are happy playing simple country or rock bass lines. They don't hear the beauty of the bass. Many think the bass is something you are forced to play because the band already has a guitar player.

I can't tell you how many guitar players I know who say, "bass is easy. I play bass too". I guess it is easy if you just hammer out root notes.
 
#949
Thanks again to all of those taking your valuable time, especially Roy and Jeff, to helping out the lesser schooled/talented bassists.

Roy-"I would recommend you take any mode and pull the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th out of it and that will give you the chord tones for the mode.
A good first place to start is www.jazzbooks.com Download Jamey Aebersold's free pdf book that matches chords to scales and gives you some simple patterns to get you going. Have fun!"

I haven't check it out yet (I will after I finish working today), but I am willing to bet that all those arpeggios that are used in modal aproach to improv from the Nitti article all come from the R,3,5,7 of mode. Another little piece of the puzzle that leaves me thinking "Wow, well, duh!" at the same time.

I quickly looked thru the Aebersold PDF's, looks to be some great stuff in there. I will make sure to save all of that into my music theory files.


I checked into the Band in Box on their website. And while it is something I could really benefit from, it cab be quite expensive! Even after reading the site I am not really sure what "level" of the program I would need. Any suggestions?








On another note somewhat related to Chad's post--- The other nite we were out to eat a restaurant, in the back a bluegrass band was set up to play a little later. I wish we could have stayed later- we can't with our young kids though. There was an upright on the stage-- i took my 2 boys back there to show them, as I have been trying to get my 5yr old into bass. The bassist immediately gestured to us and came over asking me if I wanted to play it. I told him it had been 12 yrs since I'd played a DB. Anways he let my son pluck the strings and he let me play it. The guy was super nice, very welcoming, and I really appreciated him being so great and letting us mess with his 50's era Kay. But he told my son "You know why I play bass? Because I don't know how to play the, mando, fiddle, guitar or banjo. They only let me in the band because I'm good looking. I am just here to keep the rythm."
Now perhaps what he said was true, but as a bass player I never would purposely say or do anything that would suggest that bass or bassists are second class instruments/musicians. I don't hear this to much- but enough to annoy me. I just just don't like this crap getting perpetuated. WE all know that bass is not a LimeLight instrument like guitar or singing to the general public, but c'mon. Lets talk it up not down, while being reasonable.
 
#950
bassy7 said:
I checked into the Band in Box on their website. And while it is something I could really benefit from, it cab be quite expensive! Even after reading the site I am not really sure what "level" of the program I would need. Any suggestions?








On another note somewhat related to Chad's post--- The other nite we were out to eat a restaurant, in the back a bluegrass band was set up to play a little later. I wish we could have stayed later- we can't with our young kids though. There was an upright on the stage-- i took my 2 boys back there to show them, as I have been trying to get my 5yr old into bass. The bassist immediately gestured to us and came over asking me if I wanted to play it. I told him it had been 12 yrs since I'd played a DB. Anways he let my son pluck the strings and he let me play it. The guy was super nice, very welcoming, and I really appreciated him being so great and letting us mess with his 50's era Kay. But he told my son "You know why I play bass? Because I don't know how to play the, mando, fiddle, guitar or banjo. They only let me in the band because I'm good looking. I am just here to keep the rythm."
Now perhaps what he said was true, but as a bass player I never would purposely say or do anything that would suggest that bass or bassists are second class instruments/musicians. I don't hear this to much- but enough to annoy me. I just just don't like this crap getting perpetuated. WE all know that bass is not a LimeLight instrument like guitar or singing to the general public, but c'mon. Lets talk it up not down, while being reasonable.
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I'd go with the entry level BIAB program-it will generate backing tracks and that's pretty much all you'd need immediately.
Bluegrass/Country Bands Back in the Day often had bass players that doubled as "Baggy Pants Comedian" types. Sounds like he's carrying on the tradition. I think he was just making a joke...;)
 
#951
"Sounds like he's carrying on the tradition. I think he was just making a joke..."

I definitely know he was joking about the "they only let me in the band because I am good looking"-- no doubt about it.
And perhaps he was also joking about his reasons for playing the bass- but I still don't have an appreciation for downgrading the role of bass in general. I realize that each instruments has its role in different styles of music.... No biggie. I just perfer to inform people about bass and its role- because it often more important to music than the average listener really knows.
 
#952
bassy7 said:
"Sounds like he's carrying on the tradition. I think he was just making a joke..."

I definitely know he was joking about the "they only let me in the band because I am good looking"-- no doubt about it.
And perhaps he was also joking about his reasons for playing the bass- but I still don't have an appreciation for downgrading the role of bass in general. I realize that each instruments has its role in different styles of music.... No biggie. I just perfer to inform people about bass and its role- because it often more important to music than the average listener really knows.
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My response when people ask me if bass is easy to play is: "Sure it's easy to play. The tricky part is playing it well!"
 
#953
My brother, who is a banjo player, was asked to join a band to sing lead vocals. They already had a banjo player, so he became the bass player. Right along those same lines, he never really liked playing the bass, but all the other instruments were "taken" so he had to default to playing the bass.

I don't think this is specific just to bluegrass. I think you see it a lot in rock too. "Hey, I wanna be in your band, I can play Stairway."...."Oh sorry dude, we have a guitar player...can play just like Slash, but we need a bass player". "Cool...I can play bass. Got one I can borrow?".
 
#954
Roy Vogt said:
My response when people ask me if bass is easy to play is: "Sure it's easy to play. The tricky part is playing it well!"
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This is 100% true. Heck, I can play a few songs already, and no one taught me. I can't tell you what key I'm playing in, or what mode I'm using or any of that. I just know it sounds right. That's easy.

The rest of it....very, very hard. Hardest thing I've ever tried to do in my entire life.
 
#955
bassy7 said:
A good first place to start is www.jazzbooks.com Download Jamey Aebersold's free pdf book that matches chords to scales and gives you some simple patterns to get you going. Have fun!
Click to expand...

Got a link? I can't seem to find it on the site, and it's Monday at work, so I have the phone ringing and things happening.

The price sounds right though! :)
 
#956
bassy7 said:
...On another note somewhat related to Chad's post--- The other nite we were out to eat a restaurant, in the back a bluegrass band was set up to play a little later. I wish we could have stayed later- we can't with our young kids though. There was an upright on the stage-- i took my 2 boys back there to show them, as I have been trying to get my 5yr old into bass. The bassist immediately gestured to us and came over asking me if I wanted to play it. I told him it had been 12 yrs since I'd played a DB. Anways he let my son pluck the strings and he let me play it. The guy was super nice, very welcoming, and I really appreciated him being so great and letting us mess with his 50's era Kay. But he told my son "You know why I play bass? Because I don't know how to play the, mando, fiddle, guitar or banjo. They only let me in the band because I'm good looking. I am just here to keep the rythm."
Now perhaps what he said was true, but as a bass player I never would purposely say or do anything that would suggest that bass or bassists are second class instruments/musicians. I don't hear this to much- but enough to annoy me. I just just don't like this crap getting perpetuated. WE all know that bass is not a LimeLight instrument like guitar or singing to the general public, but c'mon. Lets talk it up not down, while being reasonable.
Click to expand...

To Chad - and others. The role of bass in most music - even jazz and fusion - is to be a part of the fundamental aspect of music allows the melody to flourish. In jazz/pop/blues it functions 90% of the time as a part of the unit that is the rhythm section - in classical, it's providing the bottom, the darkness, the bigness into the harmonically lush tapestry of the orchestra. It's a critical role unto itself and is filled with intense challenges that are not readily apparent to listeners - and apparently some other musicians - but it's every bit as challenging and rewarding if you understand the nature of this role and know how to appreciate when it's done well. But it's rarely in your face or a lead role.

So when it comes to being a bass player and focusing on 'music' as opposed to playing, Chad's friend is sort of right. The reality of being a bass player is mostly under the radar/supporting actor and rarely needs to step outside of the roots and fifths zone - so if one was studying bass to become a player in the general population of players, soloing, modes, scales and chords are minimally critical to about 90% of what they'll end up doing every day as a bass player. Being a bass player is one thing - studying music is another. A bass player can study and know music as well as the most gifted virtuoso violinist, pianist or composer. What they'll DO in music will be what basses do - fulfill their role in the ensemble.

You could have a significantly rewarding life as a bass playing musician and never play a single solo and while Chad's friend's sentiment is a little cliche' and superficially condescending - it's not all that far off base when it comes to ultimately what being a bass player means. The study of music is the study of music. A bass player studying music and a piano player studying music are studying the exact same thing. When they turn around and perform music, they both do their roles (hopefully well) and don't evaluate what their doing based on how it compares to other instrument players.

The self-effacing bassist who was so accommodating to bassy7 was simply being humble. I agree in spirit with what bassy7 says in that I tend to like to say 'pro-bass' stuff when asked and not opt for what I find to be a little disingenuous and play the "I'm barely able to tie my shoes, but my really good musician friends let me play this in their band..." nonsense - but the flip side of that coin can be a player who's so aware of how much skill it takes to do their thing that they come off as if they're just short of a deity. My feeling is that he just didn't want to come off as full of himself - not that playing bass is something you do because you can't do other things.

Although the frequency with which you find bass players who are bass players because of that is alarmingly high.
 
#959
chadhargis said:
Good stuff.

That's where Adam is going with me. Last night he told me once I learn all the modes and have them down cold, I'll start learning what modes match which cords.
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The modes are no more nor no less important than any other aspect of music academics. Do not get the modes down cold. It is an unneccessary task. Just practice them!! The reast takes care of itself!
 
#960
bassy7 said:
You and Jeff are right. It is crucial to know the chord tones before getting into the use of modes. Ryan
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The modes are not a big deal. They fall into the over emphased academic area that scales get. Some teachers who don't have much to teach will always teach modes or scales, things like this. These lessons could be gone through in a month. Then, what will your teachers show you? Everybody who teaches music teaches modes. They are a cliche and frankly, they have little use in the real world of music.
 
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