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Jeff Berlin Talks Music First, Bass Second

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#21
So I gigged with a band this weekend and had to learn a 5 minute jazz thingy...Jeff, you're kind of a jazz god, right? This is really the first time I've played jazz live, and I really really liked it.

I just kind of want to know your one of a kind thoughts on the differences, or perhaps little nuances of playing jazz vs...say R&B, Rock, or Gospel.

Thoughts?

By the way, remember the B3 tour in Wichita, KS? I was there! :-)
 
#22
Buogon said:
Yes Jeff i agree with you ,this format(TAB) equals the saying "two left feet" in dancing terms.
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Tab is perpetuating a myth, that you will learn (let's say) Billy Sheehan's or Jimi Hendrix's solo by playing 15, 16, 17 18. You should be using your ears and imitating what you hear. There is nothing musical nor educational about tab and besides, rock music is best learned out of a musicschool and away from a teacher, as the history of rock music proves that nobody needs to go to a teacher or school and pay for lessons that you could do at home for free. Every rocker in history learned this way.
 
#23
noworreeze said:
So I gigged with a band this weekend and had to learn a 5 minute jazz thingy...Jeff, you're kind of a jazz god, right? This is really the first time I've played jazz live, and I really really liked it.

I just kind of want to know your one of a kind thoughts on the differences, or perhaps little nuances of playing jazz vs...say R&B, Rock, or Gospel.

Thoughts?

By the way, remember the B3 tour in Wichita, KS? I was there! :-)
Click to expand...

Jazz is a musical artform that many prefer not to play. This is an artchoice and I have no problem with one's artchoices. I might suggest that they consider jazz as the best academic music there is because there is nothing more informational than jazz studies.

Jazz differs from rock and Gospel like burgers differ from pasta and lo mein. It is a different item altogether.
 
#24
I've always been intrigued with jazz...and who doesn't like listening to it? At least once in a while? Lately I've been thinking about starting up a small coffee shop jazz group just so I can learn how to play jazz stuff. It almost seems more...hmm...intuitive?? I don't know if that's the right word, but it seems like you kind of know where it's going to go next, most of the time.

Like you've stated, I learned all the songs in the rock bands I've been in by ear, sometimes TAB, I confess...but mostly listening and playing. It's been fun, but I"m ready to expand into something shall we say...more artistic? jazz seems like a good choice, and I like burgers!

Don't know if I really said anything here.

By the way, because I got to see you, and Billy Sheehan, and Stu Hamm as part of the B3 thing, I've listed you as one of my inspirational bassists!
 
#25
JeffBerlin said:
Can you explain his thoughts in more clarity to me? I didn't read his book.
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Jeff,

The idea I've heard Vic express several times which reminds me of some of the things you've said here is that music is like a language, and that it is beneficial to keep this in mind when learning and teaching. When we are growing up and learning a language, we aren't given years of rudimentary exercises prior to being allowed to speak - we just jump into the fray and learn to find our way.

You (and Vic) seem to privelege learning by experience over learning by other more conventional "academic" means. Do you think this is an accurate description of your philosophy of learning music? And if so, are there other areas of life where you think this applies?

Thanks again!

Chris in Indianapolis
 
#26
Learning how to play falls upon the concept that one is willing to do anything to accomplish this. There lots of stories of players from poor backgrounds, with limited musical sources of enlightenment, and still their desire to learn and grow inspired them to find a way to up their musical skills. The usual ways are by buying CD's and imitating what you hear. This is eartraining and everyboyd on every instrument in every style of music learned how to play the way.

Another way is to find a teacher or a school that teaches only music, not rock, not pop.I would suggest that you never go to any school that promises or even implies on success in the music industry because they are not putting musical information first. This message is a carrot to get you to study there. Good for business, bad for you, if their business is not musical instruction only.
 
#27
Mr. Berlin;

Does the Players School have a set curriculum that all students go through? Kind of how most places you go to law school the first year is fairly similar, followed by specialization?

If so, does the players school sell the materials used in their courses so one could learn at their own pace?

I guess I have always been interested in the Players School but in all likelihood will be unable to attend anytime soon due to family and professional commitments...But I would like to begin a more serious and musical course of study...seems like reading music has always been a new years resolution...but I think I really need to focus on MUSIC COMPREHENSION and not just the details...I dunno...it's frustrating when you want to learn and have so little time to grapple with so daunting and humbling a subject...

Adios and thanks for the great years of musicianship....

Mark
 
#29
Hey Jeff, welcome back. You are a great addition to this forum and I appreciate your time.

I am a really solid bass player. I love holding down the low end and working with the drummer to establish good foundation and a solid groove. I am quite comfortable in that role within the bands I play in. My question is, I would like to step out an take a solo every now and then but don't know how to approach soloing. Does that make sense to you? What can you suggest to help me learn how to build musical solos?

Thanks,

Mark
 
#30
birdxofxprey said:
Jeff,

The idea I've heard Vic express several times which reminds me of some of the things you've said here is that music is like a language, and that it is beneficial to keep this in mind when learning and teaching. When we are growing up and learning a language, we aren't given years of rudimentary exercises prior to being allowed to speak - we just jump into the fray and learn to find our way.

You (and Vic) seem to privelege learning by experience over learning by other more conventional "academic" means. Do you think this is an accurate description of your philosophy of learning music? And if so, are there other areas of life where you think this applies?

Thanks again!

Chris in Indianapolis
Click to expand...

Indeed music is a language which means that one should learn the language if one wishes to use it. This is where I seem to split off from some of my colleagues; the philosophy is right, but the pursuit of learning it gets convoluted.

I stand for academia only during one's formative years. I don't for one second believe that there are many roads to learning how to play or else everyboyd would be playing well because everyboyd is approaching it their own way.

The message is so vanilla'ed down that specifics are not considered. I have students at The Players School of Music who learn how to read, play in time, and solo 100% of the time without metronomes, without tab, only by studying music. But many of my colleages haven't approached things in such a narrow manner of approach as I have.
 
#31
Hi Jeff, I believe it was you that recommended trombone music as part of the study of bass. Is there any particular trombone music that you see as useful? (Please ignore this if I'm wrong)

Thanks! Also I love your playing.
 
#33
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for answering all these questions.

I often play with piano players who use a lot of chord substitutions when playing, for example, standards. I've got a good (not perfect) ear for harmony, and some of those I can clearly recognize, others I don't know or they go by too fast to react to. And sometimes the contrast with the original root sounds right, but other times I feel i really need to follow their thoughts.

Do you have any advise how to act in these spots? Thanks in advance.
 
#34
Hizzoner said:
Mr. Berlin;

Does the Players School have a set curriculum that all students go through? Kind of how most places you go to law school the first year is fairly similar, followed by specialization?

If so, does the players school sell the materials used in their courses so one could learn at their own pace?

I guess I have always been interested in the Players School but in all likelihood will be unable to attend anytime soon due to family and professional commitments...But I would like to begin a more serious and musical course of study...seems like reading music has always been a new years resolution...but I think I really need to focus on MUSIC COMPREHENSION and not just the details...I dunno...it's frustrating when you want to learn and have so little time to grapple with so daunting and humbling a subject...

Adios and thanks for the great years of musicianship....

Mark
Click to expand...

Yes, the Players School has a firm curriculum organized to enlighten anybody about musically stimulating principles. We have some amazing things for guys to study around here and everybody gets better thourhg working on these ideas.

We are not set up to sell our lesson yet.


Learning is not that hard especially at The Players School. I know that lots of our guys are beginners. It would be a bad thing to insist that they learn lots of music because new students can't handle this. But, if our new guys practice every day simple musical principles and practice 2 or 3 times a day for, say 30 minutes at a time, then they mentally can deal with the new music. This is one reason why I have 100% improvement from these guys. It isn't anything that I do personally. I just insist that the guys relax and take things slower than they think they should be studying. Mistakes are OK. Out of time practice is mandatory. Through lack of pressure, guys have a chance to learn, to play in time, to read, to function better in rock or funk and to up their relationship with their instruments.
 
#35
Hi Jeff. I always read your posts with great interest and I feel that there is a lot of info in your posts, that one may need to digest slowly, before applying it in his/her world. And for most of the things you are right. Just a small personal reservation (regarding my own compositions, not LEARNING new material).

I am definitely NOT at your caliber, NEITHER as a bass player NOR, even more, as a musician. Even though I transcribe my own compositions both in standard notation as well as in TAB, I find the TAB notation useful as to how I've played what I've just played. The standard notation allows for a multitude of positions to perform any composition. If there is a "positional" guide reminding me where I was, while I was performing/composing, it helps me remember the "tonal" nuances rather than trying to remember the tone I was inspired to compose/perform. Maybe at your level this is unnecessary, but it's a bit of help to me (as well as the chords that I play in VERY uncommon positions). I'd like your opinion over this specific situation
 
#36
bench said:
Hi Jeff,

i just got your book "a comprehensive chord tone system for mastering the bass"... ....and i was a little shocked to see that it is full of tab...

...what happened there? ;)
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This book was published in 1980 something and at time, I didn't pay much attention to the silliness of tab. But now, fagedaboutit.
 
#37
west*coast*bass said:
Hey Jeff, welcome back. You are a great addition to this forum and I appreciate your time.

I am a really solid bass player. I love holding down the low end and working with the drummer to establish good foundation and a solid groove. I am quite comfortable in that role within the bands I play in. My question is, I would like to step out an take a solo every now and then but don't know how to approach soloing. Does that make sense to you? What can you suggest to help me learn how to build musical solos?

Thanks,

Mark
Click to expand...

You and everyboyd else should realize that music and the learning of it is miles away from the performance of it. Soloing requires some skills in the soloing area which are best learned by finding out about the specific elents needed to solo. It is practically impossible to spell them out here because the principles are music related. But, if you listen to great soloists (Usualy not bass players) you can get an earful about how a melody in a solo will differe from a bass part.

Most everyboyd makes errors when tthe motivation for practice is to get a gig. You should not practice for a gig .You should practice for musical edification, for knowledge of music represented on your instrument. The result of being a skilled musician is being able to do gigs, not the other way around, by playing gigs and then wondering how to play.
 
#38
Buogon said:
Jeff, their are TB'ers that would like to know how to land a gig with a major artist.
Are there any sources they can look into to find the auditions ?
What will be the do's and dont's in the audition .
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No sources! If they hear about you and if you are already good enough a player where people know who you are to let you know that so-and-so is looking for a bass player, then you could get an audition. But most of the time, someone in the band will make a recommendation which is why it pays to play your tail off and let everybody all around you know it. They might get the good gig before you do and they wiould be the ones who recommend you.

But, beware! If you are jumping ahead of yourself alooking for an audition beofer you are ready and people in musical authority hear you and don't like what they hear, it is a hard hard thing to get them to change their minds about you later one, when you actually ARE ready to audition but they already remember you for the player that you once were.
 
#39
UncleBalsamic said:
Hi Jeff, I believe it was you that recommended trombone music as part of the study of bass. Is there any particular trombone music that you see as useful? (Please ignore this if I'm wrong)

Thanks! Also I love your playing.
Click to expand...

I take credit for being the guy who discovered and then popularized trombone music to bass players to practice. This started back in 1972 when, at Berklee, my teacher couldn't find good enough music for me to practice. At the book store, I saw a book called Chord Studies for Trombone, bought it, and practiced out of it. When I got famous, I used to tell everybody that trombone music was THE best source for melodic music for an electric bass player to practice. Electric bass books for the most part are pretty badly written and probably should be avoided. But, trombone music is written to be harmonically and melodically legitimate music since trombones can only play one note at a time.
 
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