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John Myung

#41
Astrapto said:
Allow me to revitalize this thread.
I am a Dream Theater fan, and have spent hours contemplating John Myung's skills and role.
I have come to the conclusion that he is a robot. He can technically play anything that anyone tells him to play, but he does not have good ideas to actually contribute to the the music.
He can play simply, or match the other guys' riffs, but usually he is just along for the ride, and he's not worth paying attention to even when he's audible.
He practices obsessively for hours and hours. He practices while the other guys have fun, even since the Majesty days. But why?
Why would someone spend so much time practicing when they don't create music? He sometimes taps; I've never seen him slap; he played his share of harmonics back in the 90s.I would expect one who practices six hours a day to have a mastery of extended techniques, and be a prolific writer.
He could at least play a harmony line once in a while! Would that be so hard, to play a third above Petrucci instead of playing another unison?
Many of his solos are based around patterns. Look at Metropolis: F# in three different octaves, and one B just for fun. He plays it multiple times, then moves it up without variation. What a glorious, innovative, and moving solo. Erotomania and Dance of Eternity: Half of these solos are just patterns that he probably played thousands of times before forming Majesty.
The only time I can totally hear him on their newest album is during one of te cool guitar-keyboard unison lines in the intro of The Count of Tuscany. Rocking the root whole notes. And when the key changes come a while later, you can hear him playing root eighth notes. This is one of the big progressive bassists? The heir to Steve Harris, Geddy Lee, Cliff Burton? On When Day and Dream Unite he was audible, and he sometimes played really cool stuff.
It's one thing to serve the song. It's another to put little thought into your lines, copy your bandmates, and allow yourself to be buried in the mix album after album.
He's a great technical player and I admire his dedication- but what happened to his spirit of innovation or creativity? He's not setting a good example.
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You should look into his writing credits from the early records - he has written music and lyrics for the band. "Learning To Live" has quite a bit of him behind it.

I've been into DT now for 20 years. I've watched that band basically become a dual-dictatorship of Petrucci and Portnoy. Those guys are now producing every record. They were a more interesting band when there were more songwriting influences (Myung and Moore), and outside producers were used. Myung knows where his main paycheck comes from, and he really doesn't seem to be the type to rock the boat.

There's typically very little left in the sonic spectrum on a DT record for him because of Portnoy and Petrucci. The kicks are all over the frequencies the meat of the bass could be in, and Petrucci's rhythm guitar tone is eating into it from the top as well. Again that's the problem with having a guitarist and drummer producing records by themselves IMO.

Myung is a fantastic player and I think he still has a lot of feel and nuance. Many of the riffs he's presented to play with in the band - I mean there's not much you can do there unless you want to absolutely stick out like a sore thumb. I was in a dual guitar "progressive" metal band about 6 years ago where many of the songs where just straight double-kick and machine gun riffs following it. What am I supposed to do with that? Either I can A) play some entirely opposing off-beat rhythm or odd melodic part which makes me sound like an attention whore, or B) double what's there to fill it out.

Also, why would he need to show slap or tap to prove he's a worthy "heir"? Most of the time those are wank techniques anyway unless the song truly calls for it. It's almost like you're measuring a bass player's worth by how many "tricks" he uses. Progressive shouldn't mean flashy - it should mean "moving forward". Why play a third above just for the hell of it? If it doesn't work sonically, that'd be pretty selfish to do just so he could stand out. The reality is DT has an established sound now, and IMO he's doing what needs to be done to accomplish that sound. The band itself stopped being really innovative or exciting over a decade ago. I still like their records but it's not the same. They're basically a business now looking to keep things just the way they are. Myung's "job" is to fill out the sound. I'd argue a bass line can only be as interesting as a song allows it to be. Otherwise, you just sound like you're overplaying.

It's kind of funny you mention Harris, Lee and Burton. In the first two cases, those guys drove the whole sound of the band. Harris is essentially the leader of Iron Maiden and writes the majority of the material, and Rush is a trio with lots of room for the bass to breathe, and again, a large portion of the music in that band is being written by the bassist. None of this is true with Myung and DT.

In Burton's case, if he were still around I'm confident he'd be seen as a leader in the band just as Hetfield or Ulrich are. He was a big reason the songs were the way they were on those first few records. I liked Cliff a lot but was never a big fan of his sound or his fingerstyle play - I actually felt sonically Newsted was a much better fit for the band. But Cliff's contributions to the songs were invaluable.

So in closing, give Myung a break! :D
 
#43
I'm personally done with DT. They were easily one my favorite bands from about Awake to 6DOIT. But too many recycled lyrics and musical parts. Too much mindless shredding.

I'd like to hear JM in more bands like Platypus and Jelly Jam (though I didn't like the 2nd JJ CD).

I love the two-handed tapping part he put in the instrumental on the 2nd Platypus CD. He had it for years, it's on his instructional vid. And he finally got to use it in a great musical context.
 
#46
I keep coming back to this thread every few years for some reason so I'll actually post my two cents this time :D

John Myung to me is a huge conundrum. This man has unbelievable skills as anyone who has seen him play can attest. He shreds on a six string bass with no issues. That is not easy in way, and when you have John P to keep up with, it becomes even more impressive. Yet, his actual playing is extremely unmemorable. He used to have some fun basslines earlier. The intro to Lifting Shadows or the tapping freakouts of Metropolis Part 1 come to mind. But even then, what I always found odd was for a so called prog band, Myung's playing was quite basic. If you take away the thousand note a minute riffage, what you're left with is fairly basic playing confined to a very traditional, supporting role. Even back then, a lot of time, he was mostly doubling the guitar an octave down or playing root notes instead of exploring interesting counterpoint or even just throwing in small variations instead of direct doubling. Interestingly enough, Lifting Shadows is a sort of both best of and worst of of the early days. The intro is an interesting exercise in outlining chords using harmonics as he mentions in his instructional video, yet the rest of the song is very basic root notes.

Now a number of people here have mentioned that, a) being a prog band does not necessarily mean the bass has to move around a lot, and, b) DT's music is already quite dense so the bass is fairly restricted in its approach anyway. Both points are true, but let's take them one by one. The word progressive itself is meant to signify experimentation and going against the norm. The other members did experiment quite a bit earlier on (the lesser said about the later years, the better). Myung on the other hand never really went too far out of his comfort zone. The most "experimentation" I can recall on his part was the usage of the Chapman Stick on Falling into Infinity. It looks a lot like his personality is that of a very withdrawn and quiet guy and that may play into things. After all, there is only space for so many egos in a band and when John P and Rudess are already present (and that idiot Portnoy when he was a member), having your voice heard in the din may be easier said than done.

Secondly, DT's music may be quite dense but it wasn't always so. There are a number of songs, especially in the earlier days where there was a lot more space in the music, and therefore the bass as well. Again, I give you exhibit A - Lifting Shadows. There is plenty of space for the bass to play some interesting lines and yet again, we have mostly roots with a bit of guitar doubling in the instrumental section.

All this is also not helped by some of the most horrendous production I have seen in a metal band. The mixing of most of their albums is so bad that all you can hear are the overly thick guitar tone and the drums. The keys survive somewhat because they are in a different sonic spectrum than the stringed instruments but the bass gets completely destroyed. It's almost like DT were not only inspired musically by Metallica but also production wise :D I have even listened to a few of Myung's isolated bass tracks and his tone leaves a *lot* to be desired. It's way too clean, almost like a DI, with no bite whatsoever.

So what do I want to say? I want to say that Myung doesn't care enough to write a proper bassline anymore and simply doubles whatever John P does without question. But I think it's more than that. I think he's just a bit bored and somewhat disinterested and is the kind of guy to not rock the boat. DT is what pays the bills so he sticks around and fulfills a role. His playing in DT leaves a *lot* to be desired. At the very least, I'd say that as a bass player and a student of bass, watching him or listening to him doesn't inspire me to pick up my instrument and play unlike say Steve Harris or Justin Chancellor.
 
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#47
I have all DT albums and he still has some cool line here and there espeically since Mangini is in and we can hear him quite well too. He just doesn't have a tone that stick out but it works well to me. Which is pretty basic for metal record in a way. Many bass player in metal are stupidly impressive with what they can do but they are looking at the wall of sounds. It isn't bad but I understand that bass player want to hear something different.

Still many pyrotechnics and way above what many would be able to play but people criticize him because he isn't overpowering everything like Geddy Lee or Steve Harris.

Just listen to Breaking All Illusions. Quite the workout and some cool bass riff too. Same thing in Illumination theory
 
#48
One of the funny things I've heard his supporters say is that he is one of the few to play a six string. Well, first off, just playing more strings doesn't make you better, and secondly, does he actually utilise the full range? I can't ever recall seeing him actually use the C string. Sometimes it feels like he'd be perfectly fine using just a four string tuned down to B :P
 
#49
was a big Dream theater Fan and they lost me at Octavarium. Ever since I first heard Ytsejam up to Octavarium I always thought John Muyng is a guitar player in bass player's "clothes" so to speak. That's why when Petrucci and Portnoy collaborated with Rudess and Levin on the mindblowingly great Liquid Tension Experiment i was extremely thrilled to hear how a proper bass player, like the incredible Tony Levin responds to the expansive and groovy drumming style of Mike Portnoy. (and levin strictly plays his Chapman stick on those two albums and it is played like a bass not a second guitar)
 
#50
chaak said:
was a big Dream theater Fan and they lost me at Octavarium. Ever since I first heard Ytsejam up to Octavarium I always thought John Muyng is a guitar player in bass player's "clothes" so to speak. That's why when Petrucci and Portnoy collaborated with Rudess and Levin on the mindblowingly great Liquid Tension Experiment i was extremely thrilled to hear how a proper bass player, like the incredible Tony Levin responds to the expansive and groovy drumming style of Mike Portnoy. (and levin strictly plays his Chapman stick on those two albums and it is played like a bass not a second guitar)
Click to expand...
I can't speak for the albums but at least live, on Universal Mind, Levin starts out on bass and switches to Stick during the middle keyboard breakdown. From what I recall hearing on the albums, I'm guessing it's a mix of bass and Stick there too.
 
#52
Ancient thread, but still pertinent. A very good post from 2010 is as true now as it is then.

Portnoy and Petrucci seemed to run the band like dictators. With every release, the songs were a little less memorable, either turning into riffathons or just showcases for Petrucci. Their dominance of the production chair showed too. Myung has never received a good mix, but you could argue he has never really pushed for it. With Portnoy gone, Petrucci appears to have assumed full command.

Every interview I've read about him talks about the shy, introverted prodigy but he has been in the public eye for about 25 years with Dream Theater. I suppose he is happy with his lot as he has let his sonic input shrink and shrink over the years. The band has refined over the years from a more diverse and innovative sound into something more direct and simplified. Now, there is less impetus than ever for Myung to make himself stand out as a player. I cannot complain about his timing or ability to follow the root notes and unison lines he sometimes takes but I couldn't say much at all about his own sense of melody and harmony beyond 'Solar Groove' and a couple of short solos he takes live.
 
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#53
I heard a couple of comments on how he was better outside DT without having others dominate so I dug up the Jelly Jam songs which are guitar driven heavy rock. And no, Myung is just as inaudible and conservative on them as he is in DT :confused: Now I'm no longer sure what's going on. Sometimes I wonder if he even cares for playing bass now or is just reporting in to his job.
 
#56
John Myung was my main cat more than a decade years ago...
My first six string bass was his red Yamaha RBX 6JM with infinity inlays over the fretboard.
I played a lot of DT music...whole albums like Images, Awake, Change and of course Scenes from a memory.
Back then it was cool to be the only bass player around who can play The dance of eternity all day long (lol).
Nowdays i see 15 yr olds do that all over youtube.

DT music has helped me a lot to develop my technique, endurance, ability to comprehend complex time signatures, arrangements, etc..

Hey i even formed my own band playing progressive music influenced by Dream Theater and Liquid Tension in 2004/5...:)


(Check out the bass tapping at the very end lol).

As i said..it was fun while it lasted....
And then a dear friend of mine gave me John Patitucci`s Another World & Sketchbook records and Chick Corea`s first electric band record (where JP is also playing with Weckl & Henderson)...

Those records changed everything for me and i was done with DT & John Myung.

From today`s point of view, after playing hundreds of local jazz gigs, learned over 100 jazz standards with solo improvisations and melodies, and after listening closely to Myung`s ability to improvise over chordal changes (on his instrucional video) i think he was a player lucky enough to be in the right band, place and time...

Yes, he has some chops but tonewise he doesn`t float my boat and as far as progressive rock/metal raw technique goes, Billy Sheehan can run rings around him.

It was the DT music that made me like him and motivated me to learn all that tricky stuff on bass i guess..
If you are into DT and Myung i do recommend learning a lot of their stuff..It helps a lot.

But never forget there are other far more musically advanced bass cats out there...famous or not.

Cheers.
 
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#57
I used to be a really big Dream Theater fan, but their last two albums, plus Systematic Chaos, Train of Thought, and Black Clouds, were just awful. John Myung is a very talented, technical player, but very rarely does he get cool bass moments anymore. He had good stuff in Octavarium (the album and the song), and ADTOE, but the promise of a revitalized DT with something to prove disappeared after they proved they could write good songs again without Portnoy on ADTOE. Whether he's happy being a background player or Petrucci/Rudess (the core writing team now) aren't good at writing bass parts, I don't know. But there was a long stretch where he was just kind of there, but not as a major force, from 6 Degrees to ADTOE (with some exceptions like most of Octavarium and "In the Name of God"), and now it's back to that time.
 

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