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JPBasses to be built by Cliff Bordwell!

#22
Mark Latimour said:
However, I can see how, if you thought the "essence" of the bass - or at least what made it great - was the design rather than the hand of the particular luthier per se, you could come to the opposite view.
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Well, since a bass is no more than a product that is fabricated, I don't really get what you're saying. The hand that holds the tool has nothing to do with the outcome, unless that hand is not skilled enough to execute the design properly. Just because a bass is handmade does not mean you can't apply manufacturing principles to evaluating it.

Particuarly when it is crafted by an equally good luthier.
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Again, an important point here is that Cliff is not only a good luthier, but one who is very similar to JP in terms of the process and style of his basses.
 
#23
Judging by pictures alone, I feel Cliff will build a better JP. That's not a slam to JP, he seems very capable and from all reports he's very tlalented, and I agree his designs are great. But from the pics, Cliff seems to be at another level. You add JP's great designs to Cliff's own great designs... well it's enough to get a man excited.
 
#24
Jeff Moote said:
Well, since a bass is no more than a product that is fabricated, I don't really get what you're saying. The hand that holds the tool has nothing to do with the outcome, unless that hand is not skilled enough to execute the design properly. Just because a bass is handmade does not mean you can't apply manufacturing principles to evaluating it.
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Perhaps, but based on that argument there are a lot of jazz basses out there in the world which should be identical, but they are not.

I think that it goes beyond merely holding the tool. Its the luthiers approach to wood selection, what they hear when they tap it, the way they know when to, or not to, sand the neck down a little bit more etc. I am not sure that those things easily replicable and can probably explain the difference between say two equally well crafted passive jazz basses with the same hardware etc. Perhaps a pertinent example of this is a Fender Jazz bass and a Nash Jazz bass. They are not interchangable even though the Nash is intended to replicate a vintage Fender. There will be differences and no doubt, some people will claim to be able to detect them.

As I said earlier, that doesnt mean that Cliffs JP copy could not be a better, objective, bass than the JP. However, it doesn't mean it is a JP. If you see what I mean.
 
#25
Being custom designs, I believe the variations in wood and pickup choices requested by specific customers will make more difference than the variations between two very talented luthiers. And if customers can specify neck profiles and other key dimensions then there's even more variation.

All the best for the collaboration!

Alex
 
#26
Mark Latimour said:
Perhaps, but based on that argument there are a lot of jazz basses out there in the world which should be identical, but they are not.

I think that it goes beyond merely holding the tool. Its the luthiers approach to wood selection, what they hear when they tap it, the way they know when to, or not to, sand the neck down a little bit more etc. I am not sure that those things easily replicable and can probably explain the difference between say two equally well crafted passive jazz basses with the same hardware etc. Perhaps a pertinent example of this is a Fender Jazz bass and a Nash Jazz bass. They are not interchangable even though the Nash is intended to replicate a vintage Fender. There will be differences and no doubt, some people will claim to be able to detect them.

As I said earlier, that doesnt mean that Cliffs JP copy could not be a better, objective, bass than the JP. However, it doesn't mean it is a JP. If you see what I mean.
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I think I'm following you a lot better now that you've gone into some finer details.

I would still say that when it comes to things like wood selection and hand shaping of the neck - yes these are subjective choices left to the luthier - but at the same time there is an objective goal and one that a good luthier should be able to attain.

Also, when you look at things like wood selection, etc... I think CB and JP are very much on the same page, whereas your example of MTD doing a Fodera copy would be luthiers on very different pages, so to speak.
 
#27
Mark Latimour said:
Perhaps, but based on that argument there are a lot of jazz basses out there in the world which should be identical, but they are not.
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And there lies your answer... are all Fender Jazz MIA standard basses the same? Are they all made by the same person?

Heck, no two basses made by the same person according to the same plan are identical. No two CNC basses are identical. We're talking wood here.

P.
 
#29
Pneuma said:
And there lies your answer... are all Fender Jazz MIA standard basses the same? Are they all made by the same person?

Heck, no two basses made by the same person according to the same plan are identical. No two CNC basses are identical. We're talking wood here.

P.
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You seem to have completely missed the point of this discussion - we are talking about the same bass design handbuilt by two different people and whether this would result in it being the same as if it was built by only one person. :confused:
 
#32
Mark Latimour said:
You seem to have completely missed the point of this discussion - we are talking about the same bass design handbuilt by two different people and whether this would result in it being the same as if it was built by only one person. :confused:
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I'm not sure that I have. It looks like you're saying that these JP basses won't be "real" JP basses because they are made by a different person. I'm disagreeing.

A Fender Jazz is a Fender Jazz because of the design, and the authorization of the company. These basses are JPs because of the design and the authorization of JP. If a skilled person is making the bass, there should be no discernable variation beyond what is inevitable in production, as long as the pattern and specifications are followed.

P.
 
#34
Mark Latimour said:
It may not matter to you, it may matter to someone else. I'm surprised that you can't appreciate the difference between your view and someone elses.
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Oh, I can definitely appreciate differing viewpoints. But your arguments are venturing so far into speculative territory that there will never be a satisfactory answer. The only people who will be able to make that call will be those who own, have owned or have had extended experience with the original JP basses. And even then it will come down to personal taste and preference..

One may believe the new CB basses to be inferior where another could say they're on-par or perhaps superior.

New players will have no point of reference so it's not going to make a difference to them. They'll just know that they'll be getting a masterfully built bass with a design they like.

They'll be CB Basses built based on JP's designs. And they'll be killer I'm sure.

So, in the end it's not going to matter if a CB JP is equal to a JP JP. There ARE NO MORE JP BASSES since he quit building them.
 
#35
This is an interesting discussion. I don't think you can say that a bass built using the same design by different builders will definitely be the same. Look at pre-Gibson Tobias basses vs. the 90's Gibson-made Tobias basses (not the current Gibson Tobias basses made in Arkansas.) Let's forget about some of the quality control issues that Gibson had, IMO most of the basses they made during that period were great basses. But if you take a good Nashville era Gibson Tobias and play it next to a pre-Gibson Tobias built by Mike, you will know that they are completely different basses. Not better or worse (again I'm talking about a well made Gibson model) but different. The pre-Gibbys had more of a warm, sweet tone, while the Nashville's had more of a clear, modern tone. And these are basses made with the same design, basically the same components (I think the Bart pre was changed at some point). Both of those basses were handmade, but by different builders. Maybe the wood selection makes a difference. Maybe being built in a different shop, with different tools will make a difference. There are many variables that go into the end product of a handmade bass being built. Having a different luthier build the bass is a HUGE variable in my opinion, regardless of skill. It's not a better/worse thing, just different.
 
#36
I have both and I know for sure Cliff's work is in the same league with JP;) The new JP basses by CB will have the same specs to all the JP basses but of course..will have a standard pickups and preamp other than the old JP basses. My understanding is JP/CB will have Nordstrand Pickups and Audere 3 band pre. They are going to sound different than the JP pickups and East pre. But I'm looking forward to build my Naia finally!!!:hyper:
 
#37
wow interesting discussion here guys !

to make things clear and trying not to go against the CUP:

Cliff is going to build JP Basses. This means that he'll still refuse what I always refused to build (yeah still no gold hardware :D), he'll use the same templates, the same techniques and we tried to nail ALL the points and details. I do think that those basse will be nothing less than what I was doing with Fred, specs wise, spirit wise, and of course quality wise (probably beter like Peter Parker believes it). I'll will always be here to help in in whaterver I can do for Cliff but I'm not supervising. Cliff is the man now.

Right now the only spec that will be different is the preamp because the custom East John was making for me might not be as easy to get for Cliff.
Horace, sorry but JP Basses will always have 2 band preamps ;)
JP pickups will remain standard and Nordstrand will be offered as an option, maybe Q tuners too. We're still decinding that.

I wish Cliff the best luck in this adventure and thanks all of you guys who gave me kind words in this thread.

Peace,
JP
 
#39
JP Basses said:
Right now the only spec that will be different is the preamp because the custom East John was making for me might not be as easy to get for Cliff.
JP
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I'm not quite sure why you think Cliff would have any trouble getting my units. I ship to the USA virtually every week, and often several times a week, so should be no problem.

Would seem a shame that your beautiful bass art could be influenced by considerations that aren't really an issue? :)

John
 
#40
Mark Latimour said:
...
I don't know...just food for thought.
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I thought your points were valid.

JP Basses said:
Cliff is going to build JP Basses. This means that he'll still refuse what I always refused to build (yeah still no gold hardware :D), he'll use the same templates, the same techniques and we tried to nail ALL the points and details. I do think that those basse will be nothing less than what I was doing with Fred, specs wise, spirit wise, and of course quality wise (probably beter like Peter Parker believes it). I'll will always be here to help in in whaterver I can do for Cliff but I'm not supervising. Cliff is the man now.

Right now the only spec that will be different is the preamp because the custom East John was making for me might not be as easy to get for Cliff.
Horace, sorry but JP Basses will always have 2 band preamps ;)
JP pickups will remain standard and Nordstrand will be offered as an option, maybe Q tuners too. We're still decinding that.
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Thanks for the additional information...looking forward to hearing more about this venture.

M
 

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